Waratahs V Force - Superugby Rd 4

[Moono75]

This result was down to the playing group, beyond doubt. However:

1) The 'management' (coaches and administration) select the playing group. ie who to offer contracts. See other threads for more on that topic.
2) The 'management' (administration) are responsible for promoting the game, the team and the sport. They have failed on this front in so many ways it's hard to count them all.
3) The 'management' (administration) are responsible for the recruitment and retention of members. These numbers have been plummeting, and the administration is too quick to blame it on the football. Even the mid-80s Swans did a better job, and of all the codes in Sydney, the Tahs are worst at recruiting members and treating them well.
4) The 'management' are a visible and easy target for our frustration

it is baffling that year after year the Tahs are talked up but fail to deliver. They, and Brisbane are the nations biggest rugby markets. they have access to the greatest rugby talent with the strongest local domestic rugby competitions and th the largest populated cities......sorry run out of puff and lost my train of thought.....The Force won yaaaaaaaaayyyyyy!

 

[MrMouse]

The promotion of the game comes down to another chicken and the egg situation though, with the declining crowds etc comes less revenue and less money to spend on such things.

As for the picking of the playing group, if the Tahs had played against the force like they did during the first three rounds they would have won, they didn't. Last week they lost by one while having a crack against the highlanders and there was alot of praise for there application, that application wasn't there tonight and that is the players and coaches not upper management that should be brought into question. The playing group assembled is better than the performance given.

I'll be honest WJ, I don't really see where you addressed any of those points I made, and I agreed that the playing group was responsible for the performance tonight. My point re: the playing group was list management, as discussed in the Tahs 2012 thread.

 

[MrMouse]

it is baffling that year after year the Tahs are talked up but fail to deliver. They, and Brisbane are the nations biggest rugby markets. they have access to the greatest rugby talent with the strongest local domestic rugby competitions and th the largest populated cities......sorry run out of puff and lost my train of thought.....The Force won yaaaaaaaaayyyyyy!

Hahaha congrats Moono, glad you enjoyed it too!

 

[waratahjesus]

The playing group assembled is better than the performance given

 

[Moono75]

Hahaha congrats Moono, glad you enjoyed it too!

Thanks MrMouse...been waiting a long time.. Good to get some points on the board. I'm sure the Tahs will come good once they get a few of their injured players back. Bloody tired, St Pats day celebrations weighing the eyelids down. Trying to keep track of the Reds v Sharks game......is that a glass of port.....no...no away amber liquid.

 

[Shiggins]

Absolutely stocked!!! Happy days. Go the force!!

My thoughts

After the first 15 minutes the force really did well at hanging in to the ball. Not as many handling errors.

I was getting worried when Harvey had the ball. He is really slow and I think he thinks he is beal. Maybe at club level he is I don't know. But at super level he needs to settle on the chips. However it looks like he is quite a deceptive player. He beat some guys quite Easley. Well it looked easy.

The ref was very consistent and we seamed to play more to the whistle once the ground rules were laid out. I also think. Finally. We had the better out of it.

Sharpies hands or the wara try!! Well done big fella.

I was surprised that everyone thought the waratahs scrum was going to smash the force. I admit it was better then the forces scrum but not by much.

Really disappointed hearing the booing from the tah fans. I don't care how bad my team plays. I'm not gong to boo the shit out of them and make them feel worse or put bulk pressure on them.

Good promising players came out of the game. A bit of game time and it will be interesting to see how they go.



Http://www.youtube.com/shiggins316

 

[Langthorne]

The playing group assembled is potentially better than the performance given

Fixed.

But not actually better. The playing group was actually quite shithouse.

Well done to the Force. You beat the assembled Waratah playing group resoundingly. I think the scoreline flattered us.

It is great to see that Michael Foley has embraced the established climate of mediocrity at the Waratahs. The transition from the Hickey-Waugh era has been absolutely seamless, and we Waratah supporters are in all too familiar territory (I fear that it is not just familiar but scarily comfortable - we are good at being pissed off about losing).

What went wrong?

It seemed like a 'Cheetahs 2011' situation - 'we only need to turn up to win this one'......'oh, there is only 10 mins to go, let's have a go'....'why don't these guys just lay down and let us win - do they know who we are?!'.....'doh! - too late'.


TPN still throwing badly

Mumm still giving away stupid penalties - and being weak in contact

Lack of urgency, Slow delivery, No counter ruck

Over estimating the dominance (if any) of the scrum

Carter on the bench again - what kind of message does this send to the squad? Have a blinder, be consistent, actually give a shit? - fuck off to the bench

Crap kicking, with equally crap chasing.

Halangahu.....(elipsis)....and he is Captain! Really?!


In the first couple of rounds we thought the Waratahs were going to break the habit of previous seasons and, rather than start strong and get worse, would instead start slow and get good. It is beginning to look like they did peak early by almost beating the Reds and the Highlanders, and are now into the inexorable decline.

We are still supporting the Waratahs, so I guess we are still hoping for the best, but deep down it looks remarkably familiar.

 

[Gagger]

You're a long standing Tahs supporter, as of tonight, do you think Gnostic had it wrong last year? And perhaps this year is a different, rebuilding year?

I especially ask as, manifestly, this issue of the Tahs' being able to fulfill their potential in business and championship terms is hugely important for the future prosperity - or otherwise - of Australian rugby.

Not really sure what this has to do with Richard Graham's back line coaching, but...

I think any Tah fan should (and probably does) have a worry about the franchise. I, and I know many others, have strong worries about the culture there - it seems to be one of unconscious incompetence, which is the most dangerous kind.

That said, some of that needs to be tempered with the fact that this is a Tahs B team.

Having said that though, how could anyone (coaches and management especially) look at the Tahs squad at the end of last season and not realise that they have an endemic injury problem in the senior players they have recruited (note, I'm not necessarily blaming their S&C or medical staff) - think Barnes, Palu, TPN, Robinson, Mitchell, Horne

And then you go and recruit Elsom.

 

[farva]

Love it!
We will beat the Rebels next week and our surge up the table to the finals will begin

 

[Scarfman]

I have a theory, and if someone can be bothered looking the numbers up, they can prove me right or wrong. All teams in the history of the Super 12 (onwards) have had good seasons and bad. I think even the Crusaders came last once. But I'd say the Tahs have the tightest concentration of results around the 4th (just made the finals) to 6th (just missed out on the finals) range.

It is a culture of mediocrity. We hadly ever do really badly simply because we always have access to too good a playing group. And we hardly ever do really well because ... well, that's the question, isn't it? Three coaches in a row that produce almost identical rugby and results. Whether you blame "management" or not, there is something in the playig culture that needs a violent shake up.

 

[cyclopath]

Super 12 - best 2nd, worst 9th (twice) - average position 6.5
Super 14 - best 2nd, 3rd twice 13th once - average position 5.2
Super 15 - 5th

Overall - best 2nd - twice; worst 13th (out of 14). Average position - 6.0
Made playoffs - 6 times
Just missed playoffs (within 2 places) - 3 times

Slow Sunday, Scarfy!!

 

[Newter]

I have a theory, and if someone can be bothered looking the numbers up, they can prove me right or wrong. All teams in the history of the Super 12 (onwards) have had good seasons and bad. I think even the Crusaders came last once. But I'd say the Tahs have the tightest concentration of results around the 4th (just made the finals) to 6th (just missed out on the finals) range.

It is a culture of mediocrity. We hadly ever do really badly simply because we always have access to too good a playing group. And we hardly ever do really well because ... well, that's the question, isn't it? Three coaches in a row that produce almost identical rugby and results. Whether you blame "management" or not, there is something in the playig culture that needs a violent shake up.

No Scarfman, this is a pretty stupid insult. First of all most teams in the competition would love the Waratahs' performance record. Making finals doesn't happen just by having lots of good players - ask the Blues!

The one problem is performing when they are favourites and the crowd doesn't care. Very, very difficult situation to motivate yourself to the same level as your opposition. The SFS was only 20% full and the atmosphere at those games is like a piece of lettuce flapping in the wind.

Don't imply the Tahs have an unfair advantage in "access" to good players. They developed and created the vast majority of their Wallabies: Polota-Nau, Benn Robinson, Rob Horne....

To be honest I think the Force are hugely underrated and it's no shame to lose to such a team.

 

[Newter]

Well, what Gnostic is saying is that the Force pack have no problem retaining possession, or even regaining possession from the opposition with their forward pack... but...

Their backline doesn't know what to do with it... and Richard Graham is supposed to be a backline/skills specialist...

And I don't think you can really credit Graham too much for the forward display...

What's your evidence that the backlne doesn't know what to do with possession? Again, in the games I've watched, the Force play through both backs and forwards for multiple phases and regularly win penalties or territory.

You can't play multiple phase rugby without good skills. And you can't score tries like the Force did last night either. I suspect Graham might have had something to do with the outstanding draw and pass hooker Nathan Charles executed to set up the match winner.

 

[rugbyisfun]

We won't win another game with Halangahu in the team. Just watched the reply. He is pathetic. Not helped by the yarpie 9's service last night, it was also tres ordinaire

 

[fatprop]

Well that was f*cked

I can cope with losing, but what I struggle with is a side not appearing to put in. This may sound silly, but an easy try early and they seemed to think the game was done and they could coast.

So .. .. ..

Why the total change in approach at the breakdown?
Against the Highlanders they were agressive at the breakdown, why the next week stand off and have tackling practise, simply why no counter ruck? Why no clean out?
Why were the backs so lateral?
Who in the backs was to be direct?
Why kick it away in a game where you are struggling to get possession?

But to the Force congrats, they were better on the night, Graham has a well drilled side that plays to their abilities and strengths

 

[SteveMerrick]

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/u...neyman-blitzes-home-state-20120317-1vc65.html

This picture of Kingston scoring says it all really, diving into the corner and not a fan in sight...

 

[Gnostic]

A coach is judged solely on his back line play? You seem to agree his "limited" forward play was very good

No a coach is not judged soley on anything. That is the point. The Force forwards have been very good and a great strength for many years, found primarily and led well by Sharpe and Pocock so I do not attribute any great degree of this part of their game to Graham, but would readily concede that the game plan suited the strengths of the Force and so it was a prudent and well thought out plan for the day.

My point regarding backline play is soley directed at the lack of effective skills. The Force backs are as bad as the Tahs at aimless kicking to the opposition, they rarely run effective (that word again) support lines so that the ball carrier who attacks the gain line invariably meets a defender and another ruck is set up. No other passing in the backline is anything but a shuffle to the individual designated to "hit it up". When you consider this point it is reinforced by the love for selecting two crash ball centres and then attempting a second play maker at 15. Very rarely indeed is any imaginative play run which actually breaks down the defensive line. Most Australian Rugby backlines have become like watching unlimitted tackle league, shuffle it along and hit it up. Forward drive once twice, shuffle again and hit up. Finally catch and pass skills are poor apart from noted people who have always showed impressive skill in this area, why haven't those with defficiencies in these areas improved? The same backline play was noted at the Wallabies with the allegedly top players in Oz often demonstrating the same skills.

 

[Scotty]

The second option is clearly the way to go, LG. It builds on what we have.

Two full rounds of A games between the 5 aus sides would just about be enough to add the depth. The Aru could use some of the player top up money to invest in it. The state squads would increase to 50 players to cater for it, with minimum pays for super rugby players to be reduced, but match payments for playing in the top team to be added. Scrap the academy system and draft those players into the state squads.

 

[Scotty]

I have a theory, and if someone can be bothered looking the numbers up, they can prove me right or wrong. All teams in the history of the Super 12 (onwards) have had good seasons and bad. I think even the Crusaders came last once. But I'd say the Tahs have the tightest concentration of results around the 4th (just made the finals) to 6th (just missed out on the finals) range.

It is a culture of mediocrity. We hadly ever do really badly simply because we always have access to too good a playing group. And we hardly ever do really well because ... well, that's the question, isn't it? Three coaches in a row that produce almost identical rugby and results. Whether you blame "management" or not, there is something in the playig culture that needs a violent shake up.

The tahs have had good teams, but have they ever had great ones? They have always lacked for a top line flyhalf which has limited their greatness. They did very well to make the two finals they did.

The tahs have had good coaches, but have they ever had great ones? Their best recent one was let go, and then got better afterwards.

Their game plans have often been a little one dimensional, but often executed well. It means you get to the 4-5 position, but can't really seal the deal.

As to the current sides merits - are the personnel really that good? I suspect that none of their backs would make a wallaby starting side if it was picked today, maybe only one forward would (Robinson). Maybe we are overrating the personnel that were involved in this game?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Following Sydney Uni' over the years has been similarly difficult.

Not recently