Waratahs v Chiefs - Round 14 - Friday 27 May 2016

[Braveheart81]

Horwitz is two years younger, but has been contracted with Tahs for three years.
Lucas had a one year EPS contract prior to this year.
Every time Horwitz steps on the field,he proves he's not up to it.
Lucas had his worst game last night,but IMO is far and away the next best 9 after Phipps.

Horwitz looks to be trying too hard and Lucas looks slow after Phipps, but so does every other half in the country.

It is funny, in the SS behind the big Manly pack he looks like a superstar, but with a less dominant pack who play at a higher tempo he looks not as effective. That said, he sets up tries and can do some very good things.

I don't get the Lucas haters. All season he has come on and played like a finisher should. In my opinion he is as good as Frisby, who I remain unimpressed with, and streets ahead of Stirzacker, Mathewson and Dowsett/Powell. I'm glad to have him as Phipps backup.

Having Cubelli at the Brumbies and Mathewson at the Force is not doing Australian rugby any good at all.

I really don't get the criticism of Horwitz from last night.

He had that one shocking kick but apart from that I thought everything else he did was good. He made a couple of good runs, didn't miss a tackle and created a couple of turnovers (albeit more from being in the right place at the right time).

I think he definitely is up to it. He needs to improve his kicking but everything else is going pretty well.

Lucas made a couple of mistakes last night and threw a couple of bad passes (there was one that Horrell could have intercepted and another that put Foley under pressure and resulted in a knock on and us losing the ball. Generally I think he's been a good backup. He keeps the tempo of the game high which is what we want.

 

[Pfitzy]

Oh ye of little faith!

Not me, H. I picked 'em in my tipping comp.



Mind you, I ALWAYS pick them, I can never go against my beloved Tahs.

Broken clock is right twice a day.

 

[Brumby Runner]

I really don't get the criticism of Horwitz from last night.

He had that one shocking kick but apart from that I thought everything else he did was good.

The kick was very poor but the result was not shocking as Izzy marked it and retained possession. Just again illustrates the importance of having players who are good under the high ball. They can put a lot of pressure on the opposition when a well placed kick is put in, and also defuse a situation on either a poor kick by the home side, or a good kick by the opposition.

 

[ACT Crusader]

No one's mentioned Dave Dennis so far. For mine he's been the best player for the Tahs this year.

I mentioned him, when I said "maligned Tahs forward"

 

[Pfitzy]

Horne copped a knee to the head just before the Thief's second try. Not surprised he had to go off

 

[Gagger]

I really don't get the criticism of Horwitz from last night.

He had that one shocking kick but apart from that I thought everything else he did was good. He made a couple of good runs, didn't miss a tackle and created a couple of turnovers (albeit more from being in the right place at the right time).

I think he definitely is up to it. He needs to improve his kicking but everything else is going pretty well.

Lucas made a couple of mistakes last night and threw a couple of bad passes (there was one that Horrell could have intercepted and another that put Foley under pressure and resulted in a knock on and us losing the ball. Generally I think he's been a good backup. He keeps the tempo of the game high which is what we want.

Mate - that's the cool-aid talking!

For Horwitz it's his first season at Super so no doubt it'll take time to adjust to the pace of the game. In fact, if you look at his stats over the season you can see him improving - see missed tackles and errors over the season so far below. For a sub playing minority minutes, these are not good numbers

I've seen one good roost that makes me think there's potential (is he known for distance from the boot in SS?). I hope he continues to improve and do well.

 

[Gagger]

Gibson must have a lot of faith in Horwitz - to take Rob Horne off when the game was still in the balance and let him close out the game. I know the commentators mentioned Horne looked tired, but it was still a big call for me (unless Horne was injured, which he wasn't to my knowledge). I'm not saying his faith in him is well placed or not, but it was a pretty big call in the context of the game for mine.

Cam Blades said to Xaviera on the Front Page that Horne was cooked and had to be subbed. Went apeshit on his 100th!

 

[Pfitzy]

Lucas haters make no sense to me. Its just that he's such a step down from class in Phipps - like, oh, every other scrumhalf in Australia right now - that it looks worse than it is.

I thought the little blond hobbit did a magnificent job finishing that game, threatening the snipe, giving some decent balls, and most importantly: getting to the fucking ruck base.

Anyway, having watched the full game, its clear the mission was to physically c*** up and smash anything in a black shirt.

Hopefully that carries over into Bledisloe.

 

[Gnostic]

Redshappy's favourite subject again raises its head. The lack of effective coaching in the area of kicking skills.

Horwitz in my view has played quite well for a rookie 10/12 but his kicking is terrible. That however isn't an isolated issue. Only Foley in the Tahs can kick reliably and he too makes some howling errors with regular failures to miss touch. These are the sort of things that the top NZ players rarely miss except on a bad day. If this was an isolated week we could write it off, but it has been a trend for years. In fact I'd say the Tahs haven't had a reliable kicker in the back three since Hewat. That is a serious indictment and a key reason why they can struggle against a very well executed territorial game (eg Crusaders).

You have to ask why such a fundamental flaw in so many player's games hasn't been addressed. FFS even Julian Savea has developed from a purely running winger to somebody now safe under the highball and can kick when required. Nadolo left Australia unable to catch, pass, kick.... and is now one of the more complete backs.

 

[cyclopath]

Redshappy's favourite subject again raises its head. The lack of effective coaching in the area of kicking skills.

Horwitz in my view has played quite well for a rookie 10/12 but his kicking is terrible. That however isn't an isolated issue. Only Foley in the Tahs can kick reliably and he too makes some howling errors with regular failures to miss touch. These are the sort of things that the top NZ players rarely miss except on a bad day. If this was an isolated week we could write it off, but it has been a trend for years. In fact I'd say the Tahs haven't had a reliable kicker in the back three since Hewat. That is a serious indictment and a key reason why they can struggle against a very well executed territorial game (eg Crusaders).

You have to ask why such a fundamental flaw in so many player's games hasn't been addressed. FFS even Julian Savea has developed from a purely running winger to somebody now safe under the highball and can kick when required. Nadolo left Australia unable to catch, pass, kick.. and is now one of the more complete backs.

With the loss of Beale it is a bigger issue. Folau is kicking fine - he has worked out a low, punchy style which carves off good distance and is effective enough, and he has become far more adept at deciding when to kick, which was his biggest issue for the first 2 years. To be honest, with Foley, Beale and Folau the Tahs would have been fine. Phipps can't box-kick, but no half can with any real impact apart from Aaron Smith. It could always be better, but it isn't the glaring hole it was before.

 

[Pfitzy]

You have to ask why such a fundamental flaw in so many player's games hasn't been addressed.

I don't have to ask. Like a lot of things, I know. Yes, its a cross I bear.

Comes down to the lack of emphasis in school/age level rugby on kicking.

If you're trying to coach basic kicking skills into someone at pro level, you're fucked in the head. They need to have the aptitude for it to start, and some natural ability. They get neither if they can just dominate using a running/passing game in a very shallow pool of very closed competitions.

Guys like Foley have improved with the right coaching, but had a basic framework in place.

We bemoan the skill set of our players across the board when we watch some of the Kiwi games, but ultimately we can't continue with the development pathways we have, and expect any different.

 

[Braveheart81]

Mate - that's the cool-aid talking!

For Horwitz it's his first season at Super so no doubt it'll take time to adjust to the pace of the game. In fact, if you look at his stats over the season you can see him improving - see missed tackles and errors over the season so far below. For a sub playing minority minutes, these are not good numbers

I've seen one good roost that makes me think there's potential (is he known for distance from the boot in SS?). I hope he continues to improve and do well.

I agree that he's missed too many tackles. Most of the games where the excess of missed tackles and errors have occurred are games where he has started and played most of the game.

Improvement is needed for sure and in no way would anyone describe him as being a breakout star this year but I think the core of his game is solid and he will continue to improve.

The discussion started from ILTW saying he wasn't up to it. I disagree with that sentiment and do think he has the potential to turn into a quality Super Rugby player.

I certainly wouldn't be chucking him out and starting again.

To me the question for next year will be who are the Waratahs wing options and whether Horwitz is playing well enough at 12 to keep Horne on the wing or whether our wing selections will be good enough to push Horne to 12 for an overall better team.

 

[Hawko]

Monday afternoon and I'm still buzzing over the Tahs performance. It was as good as their demolition of the Canes two years ago and we all know what that led to.

Still, right now they are out of the eight and unlikely to make the finals. Have a look at the cushy run home the Saffers teams have and tell me this is a well balanced comp and there is no advantage from being in a conference with the Kings, Jaguares and Sunwolves and getting a guaranteed three teams and two home quarter finals. Its a disgrace.

 

[Braveheart81]

I got celebratory hugs after the game from Waratahjesus and Lindommer so it must have been a good win.

 

[Scrubber2050]

I got celebratory hugs after the game from Waratahjesus and Lindommer so it must have been a good win.

You are obviously just a likable guy

 

[Groucho]

I've seen one good roost that makes me think there's potential (is he known for distance from the boot in SS?). I hope he continues to improve and do well.

Paul Cully in the Hurled said "It's too early to start talking about Horwitz for Wallaby selection yet." It's also too early to start talking about not talking about it.

 

[Groucho]

You are obviously just a likable guy

It's an ecstasy thing.

 

[Pfitzy]

Have a look at the cushy run home the Saffers teams have and tell me this is a well balanced comp and there is no advantage from being in a conference with the Kings, Jaguares and Sunwolves and getting a guaranteed three teams and two home quarter finals. Its a disgrace.

Gotta pull you up there, Hawko - Los fucking Jaguares were meant to CRUSH the bloody Saffers into a pulp and challenge the Ponies for the title, remember?

They're practically the Argentinian Test side FFS!

 

[Braveheart81]

I agree. I think the 8 African conference teams are really just a good Jaguares team away from seeming balanced.

If there was an NZ, Aus, SA and Arg home quarter final it would seem pretty good.

NZ being so much better than everyone else has made it seem tougher on Australia. Realistically the Lions could be the best non NZ side in the competition.

Sent from my HTC_PN071 using Tapatalk

 

[Lindommer]

Magnificent performance from the Tahs. A few thoughts:

• The improvement in physicality from Skelton, Mumm, Palu and Lousi was a revelation. I've bagged all four for their commitments this season, and I'm thrilled I have to eat humble pie. Now I can see why Cliffy was signed in the first place, at the very minimum sensible injury cover.
• Ryan seems to be coming to grips with playing LHP resulting in improved play elsewhere.
• Pick-and-go worked a treat, very well executed.
• Dennis and Hooper continue to put in their regular excellent efforts, but now the other pigs are following them. The urgency from the whole team to bust a gut backing up was huge.
• Lineout working well, finally.
• Phipps, Foley and Foley have lifted their games to cover for Beale's loss.
• I don't get the slagging of Lucas and Horwitz. Matt made a coupla small errors, which were more than balanced out by his usual energetic performance. He's got a very accurate pass and keeps the tempo of the game humming along. The only comment I could make is his occasional propensity to cart the pill up, you're far too small to take on big Saffer forwards, Matt. Horwitz? Does the simple things well. Give the kid a chance to settle in to Super rugby.
• I thought the Chiefs played quite well, leading to a quality game of rugby. Their ball through the hands in the backs was very good and resulted in three tries. But their tactic of breakdown-lite was mystifying, most un-NZ like. Their kicking was much better than ours.
• The Chiefs' tactic of tying up Tahs players at the side of the breakdown seems to be a common practice of some NZ sides. Why they haven't had this whistled out of them remains a mystery, especially Franks from the Saders. The Silver Frown regulars adjudged the Tahs to be dirty on Friday night, I was there, I didn't see it.

A few things to work on:

• Foley, Horwitz and Kellaway need to get more length on their kicks, and a little more accuracy. For the life of me I don't know why they don't wander over to the Swans for a few kicking sessions.
• Robinson and Guildford need to lift their games, neither of them are doing the bread-and-butter wingers' work.
• Which leads me to team defence. Overall the Tahs' defence has been very good this year after a shaky few matches against the Brumbies, Clan and Rebels. The same could be said on Friday night (I got the impression against the Bulls and Chiefs there were times the Tahs were happy for them to have the ball as they enjoyed belting them) apart from the Chiefs' three tries scored hugging the touch lines. The defence from the outside backs here needs to be fine-tuned.

Most importantly praise must be given to the Tahs coaching staff. Earlier this year the scrum was shit, the lineout leaked like a sieve, the handling was woeful and the structure past two phases non-existent. The improvement in the scrum's been there for all to see (only the Saders have troubled us the past few rounds) with even the benchies mullering a few opponents; the lineout's solid and pinches the odd opposition throw; the handling on Friday night was slick; and the urgency to line up in defence or bust a gut backing up was a joy to watch.

To finish off I'm going to have a grizzle about the officials. For years I've thought Peyper's a shit ref, always looking for an opportunity to unnecessarily inject his posturing, preening self into a match. I was going to comment about his usual performance last week in the Saders/Tahs match, but that would've looked like sour grapes. One instance: Jaco pinged Izzy for offside in the middle of the paddock resulting in a try to the Saders a few phases later. The Saders ruck was just in their part of the paddock and IZZY WAS STANDING BEHIND THE HALF WAY LINE, ONSIDE! HTF the TJ/ARs missed it I don't know. Same as Friday night, two knock ons right in front of the TJ/ARs incorrectly called. And what about Foley's penalty in the first half which didn't go into touch about halfway on the western side? The Chiefs catcher had his foot on the line, RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE TJ/AR! On the matter of the knock on reversals, it's well and good to go back and correct an error after the incident was replayed on the big screen but, to me, it's akin to cheating. We'd be bloody furious if such hometown broadcasting cost us a final in Safferland. Braveheart reckons it's part-and-parcel of home ground advantage, we agreed to differ, and had another beer.