Waratahs v Brumbies trial in Mudgee

[KOB1987]

Ok KOB, thanks for letting me know. I still think they could have come and said hello. Anyway, all good.

Oh I see, you were with one of the u15s sides, so fair enough you felt snubbed. They probably didn't want to interrupt the warm ups, but from what I saw of them over the weekend if you had asked them to be involved somehow they would have, if only briefly. Just for future reference!

 

[Lee Grant]

A report on the trial from the Brumbies.

https://www.brumbies.com.au/2017/02/brumbies-downed-rampant-waratahs/
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[Micheal]

A report on the trial from the Brumbies.

https://www.brumbies.com.au/2017/02/brumbies-downed-rampant-waratahs/
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Haha the "Plus500" naming sponsorship will make things confusing for Brumbies fans this season.

From the article:

"Waratahs 53 Plus500 Brumbies 17"

That makes it sound like we put 553 points on them.

Geez - it was bad but it wasn't that bad.

 

[Simon.]

A report on the trial from the Brumbies.

https://www.brumbies.com.au/2017/02/brumbies-downed-rampant-waratahs/
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GAGR's match report was better!

 

[Lindommer]

If I can add my two cents' worth:

• The standout player of the match for me was Dempsey, quite physical on the ball and put in the hard work off the ball to get into good attacking positions. Jack's reminiscent of a young Owen Finegan, albeit blessed with a little more athleticism. Let's hope he keeps developing with the potential to feature in gold before RWC2019.
• Gordon looked quite comfortable in the scrummie role, he certainly wasn't overshadowed by Cubelli. And Lucas has about the nicest pass of any Oz half. I've written elsewhere in a perfect world one of them might've crossed the Nullabor with a view to getting a lot more game time than either of them are going to get at the Tahs, but St Catastrophe of the Injuries should ensure one, or both, of them'll get plenty of minutes in sky blue. Every squad needs three hookers and three scrummies, the Tahs seem to be well covered in both positions this year.
• Simone looks to be a class player; he should be given some time in the 23 this year.
• Harry Jones put in a huge effort for a winger, runner-up in the MotM Stakes for mine. We haven't had a winger for quite some time who's prepared to work so hard off the ball as Harry did on Saturday. Harry's energy and enthusiasm contributed directly to at least two tries on Saturday. And he's fast. Bloody fast.
• Last year I thought Robinson looked like a talented athlete playing a code of rugby; don't get me wrong, I'm not slagging him, it's just he seemed a little lost at times. On Saturday I thought Reece looked like an instinctive rugby player, nice to see.
• Hanigan'll feature in the 23 most weeks this year, barring injury. A coupla dropped balls from kickoffs didn't look so good (nothing compared to the ten or more spilled pills by the Brumbies, Gawd it was painful to watch), somewhat counter-balanced by good work in the tight. Ned came back on during the last third as blindside breakaway and was the target in the Tahs' lineouts; he won every one thrown to him.
• The dirt-trackers in the scrum looked to be enjoying scrummaging all game. And shunted the Brumbies late in the match.
• As a former back I'll admit to knowing bugger all about the dark arts of the front row. However, what's the go with props continually switching sides? Robertson looked quite comfortable at THP last year (and looks to be the shape for it) yet he's been tagged as a LHP by the Wallabies and Tahs forward coaches. Que? Surely we've learnt from the experience of buggerising Alexander around the last few years.
• A coupla talented youngsters, Horwitz and Toua, don't seem to've realised their natural talents at a higher level. Them and many others. Toua is one of many talented youngsters who haven't worked hard enough with their natural physical attributes to cut it at Super level; Horwitz seems to be going down a similar path.
• The Tahs look to have some nice depth in most (all?) positions in their squad, Although I will use a Lee Grant aphorism and say that depth might better be described as width in the five-eighth pozzy. There are four of 'em at the Tahs: Foley, Hegarty, Deegan and Mason; one champion and three triers. Mason had first dibs on Saturday and did the simple things well, simply. Nothing flash but nothing to excite me or suggest he could feature in a Super match.

It was a great afternoon at a very impressive venue. I chatted to one of the locals and found out it was the league ground in Mudgee, rugby's played elsewhere where the local club have their clubhouse. This ground's being used for a City/Country match later this year.

One last thing: a very well-organised match. It was nice to be handed a match sheet after walking in but with the run on 15 listed only, what about the bench players? It was difficult to work out who was playing where in the second and third passages of play.

 

[Braveheart81]

The big change Harry Jones needs to make is to stop kicking the ball so often. Robinson did it last year but has now put it away and Jones needs to do the same.

It's the kind of tactic that is more successful in lower levels but is a low percentage play in Super Rugby and above. I'm sure he'll be coached out of it soon enough.

 

[wamberal]

IMHO any winger who kicks the bloody ball in attack should be subbed immediately unless the kick leads directly to a try.

 

[KOB1987]

It was a great afternoon at a very impressive venue. I chatted to one of the locals and found out it was the league ground in Mudgee, rugby's played elsewhere where the local club have their clubhouse. This ground's being used for a City/Country match later this year.


One last thing: a very well-organised match. It was nice to be handed a match sheet after walking in but with the run on 15 listed only, what about the bench players? It was a difficult to work out who was playing where in the second and third passages of play.

Hey, great report Lindo. I offered to do one officially for this site but thankfully Simon had already been recruited as I was so busy with Club matters that I didn't really get to watch the game in great detail. I was happy just to be a part of it and soak up the atmosphere!

It's kind of right about it being the league ground. It's a public facility and it's there if we want to use it, but we are pretty well set up at our own ground (Jubilee) where as you were correctly informed we have our own clubhouse. Before this ground was built the leaguies used to share our ground (they play on Sundays) so it kinda suited us that they elected to use it permanently. However we host many representative fixtures/tournaments and we use Glen Willow for that.

I've had a few comments about the program, I have to say I didn't even see it myself, but I'm not sure who was in charge of it, it wasn't the rugby club that's all I know, presumably someone at Council did it.

 

[Brumby Runner]

^^^^^^ Couldn't agree more about the likes of Dempsey, Gordon and Simone. IMO all will be in and around the Wallabies well before the 2019 RWC. Lots of good things came out of the game for the Tahs, but sadly not for the Brumbies. Cubelli's injury is a big blow for this Super Rugby season. Their ball handling was atrocious as you point out, but the biggest problem I can see is the same-old, same-old game plan/coaching on display as last year.

Two changes are needed to be made to the game plan immediately. Get rid of the rolling maul and cut down on the inclination to kick tha ball away every time play is in their own half. If the maul ceases to be their go to weapon, they just might have to develop a few attacking plays using their backline to get to or across the try line. Win or lose, it will be a much more attractive spectacle for the fans.

 

[Simon.]

From the Ed. - please don't quote large posts. Reduce them to the part you want to discuss - or just indicate which post you are referring to such as :

As a former back I'll admit to knowing bugger all about the dark arts of the front row. However, what's the go with props continually switching sides? Robertson looked quite comfortable at THP last year (and looks to be the shape for it) yet he's been tagged as a LHP by the Wallabies and Tahs forward coaches. Que? Surely we've learnt from the experience of buggerising Alexander around the last few years.

Re: Tahs props, Gordon Bray asked Paddy Ryan about that after the match. Paddy said that after Benn Robinson was forced to retire last year (presumably putting some pressure on Tah loosehead stocks, at least in the eyes of the powers that be) Paddy had started playing both sides and was enjoying the challenge.

So I guess it is deliberate tactic by the Tahs to ensure they have props capable of playing both sides. It's actually somewhat ironic, as the Tahs scrum got absolutely towelled by the Reds in the first round last season and the only thing that saved them from a penalty try was going uncontested when they ran out of props.

But this is a new-look and very much improved Tahs scrum that I think will prove to be a bit of a weapon this year, at least when it doesn't have Skelton locking it. And from my understanding of the scrum rules, if you lose both looseheads but have a reserve tighthead on the bench who's confident and capable of playing loosehead, you are allowed to keep going with contested scrums.

So in that sense having bench props who can play both sides seems like a good idea. If you're getting towelled at the scrum you could always claim your tighthead isn't confident any more - from my understanding of the rules (somebody correct me if I'm wrong) it's up to the team to make the call?

 

[Snotterbox]

From the Ed. - please don't quote large posts. Reduce them to the part you want to discuss - or just indicate which post you are referring to such as :

Nice to know who the ed is!
Tugs fetlock.
[I tried to tug my forelock but I'm bald as a coot.]

 

[Lindommer]

This recent practice to make some props ambidextrous doesn't make sense to me. I thought the increase of squads to 23 with two suitably trained players for all three front row spots was supposed to cover most contingencies after injuries. IF there are so many injuries a team runs out of either sort of prop, well, I imagine that'd be both rare and bloody bad luck.

I'd much prefer props knuckle down to specialising in one side or the other with an aim to be very, very good at the basic execution of their tasks.

 

[fatprop]

This recent practice to make some props ambidextrous doesn't make sense to me. I thought the increase of squads to 23 with two suitably trained players for all three front row spots was supposed to cover most contingencies after injuries. IF there are so many injuries a team runs out of either sort of prop, well, I imagine that'd be both rare and bloody bad luck.

I'd much prefer props knuckle down to specialising in one side or the other with an aim to be very, very good at the basic execution of their tasks.

It doesn't really hurt, especially in training and trials to know how it feels to pack on the other side.

It also adds redundancy on the bench in moments of desperation

 

[RugbyReg]

This recent practice to make some props ambidextrous doesn't make sense to me. I thought the increase of squads to 23 with two suitably trained players for all three front row spots was supposed to cover most contingencies after injuries. IF there are so many injuries a team runs out of either sort of prop, well, I imagine that'd be both rare and bloody bad luck.

I'd much prefer props knuckle down to specialising in one side or the other with an aim to be very, very good at the basic execution of their tasks.

not sure if its a recent practice. Topo, Crowley, Andy Mac, Noriegez, Dunning, Holmes, Darcy, Panaho and many many others. They all played both sides.

 

[Brumby Runner]

RR, In those days when squads were limited to 22, it was essential for the reserve prop to be at least adequate on both sides. The increase in the squad size to 23 was meant to allow two specialist props on the bench to cover both sides. But over the past couple of years there seems to be an inclination by coaching staff to "multi-skill" their props, which doesn't seem to have a lot of real basis.

 

[Simon.]

It seems to be a recent practice in the last few years since the introduction of the 8 man bench and into the "crouch bind set" era though. Props have tended to become specialised as the scrum has developed in response to safety concerns.

Plus what they are doing seems to be a bit different from a prop like Holmes who started as one side and then switched to the other at a certain point in his career.

I'm not sure whether the Tahs are actually trying to develop genuine "utility props" capable of switching sides or whether they're just giving their props experience at both so they can decide which side to focus them on, with the added bonus of their being able to fill in in an emergency. I suspect the latter and I suspect they are thinking that long-term injury cover is easier if your prop already has some experience on the other side.

As for it being 'both rare and bloody bad luck' - I can recall at least two games last season when scrums went uncontested due to lack of props but both were one injury and one YC. Reds/Tahs and Canes/Chiefs. Over a season that is pretty rare but it certainly does happen.

 

[Braveheart81]

I think another part of the equation particularly at Super Rugby level is trying to get your best team on the park.

If the Tahs best two props are Robertson and Kepu then it could make sense starting both even if both would generally prefer to play THP.

Robertson, Ryan and Kepu will all be in the best 23 (and probably Lolohea to start the season at least). It's about trying to optimise how we use them.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[Brumby Runner]

BH the outlier seems to be Alan Ala'alatoa who is not one the best two props in the Wallabies but has been switched by the coaches from the LH side where he played all of his previous Super rugby to the TH side.

 

[Braveheart81]

BH the outlier seems to be Alan Ala'alatoa who is not one the best two props in the Wallabies but has been switched by the coaches from the LH side where he played all of his previous Super rugby to the TH side.

He played junior and under 20s rugby at THP though didn't he?

Was he a case of his Super Rugby team switching him to LHP because that is where they needed someone?

 

[Jagman]

I don't think anyone is trying to make the props ambidextrous they're just trying to work out what they're best role will be. Robertson is very small for a THP which probably didn't matter through age grade and Shute and indeed he was the Waratahs best option there last year even if it did take a while for them to realise. However I can see why the test coaches would see his size as a hindrance to playing there long term. And the player probably has more desire to do what is best for his chances to make the test team. I would guess that the Wallabies and Robertson are probably hoping he spends as little time as possible on the THP side from now on, as apposed to becoming ambidextrous. Likewise for AA.

In saying that, however, you can only take 5 props to the RWC (at least that is the standard amount) which means you still need a prop who has experience on both sides to a small degree.