Waratahs v Brumbies - Round 8, 2016

[I like to watch]

To many repetitive drills which bore the s**t out of the kids, too many tin pot rep teams (where they do the same repetitive drills).

In my day, touch footy was played before training,as numbers built up, and then as a bit of a warm up.
This 'unstructured play' was actually developing ball playing skills, with ball players learning to react to defences.
That is gone now,ball players instead learn choreographed plays, that they execute with complete disregard for what is unfolding in front of them.

3 on 2 drills, & 4 on 3 drills are fine, except it appears to me that most players width of vision is too narrow to identify when these situations exist.

 

[Groucho]

Jeez, I hope Beale stays in Australia. He's far and away the Waratahs best player at the moment.

And despite what the SMH's resident idiot, Paul Cully said, he's having a very good season.

Of Kurtley Beale we can politely say he has suffered from Bernard Foley's absence. Impolitely, his form has been rubbish at times and Wasps may have more money than good sense.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/wallabies-need-matt-giteau-for-england-test-series--if-the-french-play-ball-20160413-go5v0t#ixzz468m5glzV

 

[fatprop]

I hate the Folau at 13 talk, just because it just distracts from the Tahs biggest problem - the effectiveness of the pack.

Against the Brumbies we just couldn't get any go-forward once the Brumbies defensive line was set. Roach, Mumm, Dempsey just kept running into brick walls, and getting smashed behind the advantage line.

It's been our problem all season- we just can't get the opposition line going backwards. Add on a struggling lineout and a scrum that gets to parity at best (though it is improving) and it doesn't matter who wears the 13 shirt, you aren't going to win games.
.

You can add the lack of effective cleanouts, both Phipps & Lucus were being mullered

 

[Froggy]

Everything Barbarian says is spot on.
Cheika's 2014 success had as it's foundation a forward pack that was absolutely monstering the other side, consistently over the advantage line in attack, knocking the opposition over behind it in defence.
The reason it's not in evidence is that of the main people responsible for this, really only Hooper and a past-it Palu is left. Polota-Nau is injured, and Kepu, Potgieter and Douglas are no longer at the Tahs.
It has to be re-built, and that is NOT Gibson's fault, as some of the muppets on the front page seem to think.

 

[ACT Crusader]

Brumbies forwards were far more aggressive at the collisions albeit not very accurate once the ball hit the deck. But they sucked in forwards than Gibson would've liked.

That 2014 season (yes we were robbed in the Grand Final ) the Tahs forwards were very effective at working together.

A forward ball carrier rarely carried without another team mate in his back pocket. They hunted in 2s and 3s and made the breakdown a contest. They had some decent cattle in there that thrived on the aggressive play close in. That's rarely happening this season if ever.

 

[Gnostic]

What?!!



The NRC isn't there to teach rugby players basic skills. That should be sorted out well before then, with NRC honing the fitness and team work.



It would appear then, that age grade rugby - including schools rugby - is to blame.



Premier Rugby is the domain of flat track bullies with money, so I don't expect that to help in any fashion.

I think that is what I said Pfitzy. The NRC coaches have a very small window to get some systems in to play a small number of games. They are not going to do any skills development.

Where do the players play most of their rugby. Not in age group sides, which have the same narrow focus and opportunity. It is with their clubs, when they get to play with them, Funny that for the flat track bullies the old amateur players could kick and pass with far more accuracy and consistency (in general) than many (not all) than modern full time professionals.

As I said the Tahs V Brumbies game, for having two of the powerhouses of Australian Rugby was woeful in terms of skills execution. As I said it is week 6 of the competition and they had a bye as well and they have not improved, and it could be said the Brumbies have regressed from their outperformance of week 1. When I compare these performances with the NZ sides, even the worst NZ side the Blues, I struggle to say that the Oz sides are their match in any facet of the game but most especially the execution of basic skills, and that is not just in this game but over the whole of the 2016 season so far (barring as I said the Ponies first exceptional game)

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I hate the Folau at 13 talk, because it just distracts from the Tahs biggest problem - the effectiveness of the pack.

Against the Brumbies we just couldn't get any go-forward once the Brumbies defensive line was set. Roach, Mumm, Dempsey just kept running into brick walls, and getting smashed behind the advantage line.

It's been our problem all season- we just can't get the opposition line going backwards. Add on a struggling lineout and a scrum that gets to parity at best (though it is improving) and it doesn't matter who wears the 13 shirt, you aren't going to win games.
.

100% correct. During the Cheika years, the Tahs were excellent at smashing into and bending the gain line by having that rabid pack hitting the pill at pace. They did it with such regularity that they were the best attacking (and defensive) team in the comp. The simple philosophy of putting the ball out in front of the pigs, who were running hard from depth, and then having a tight formation to drive over the ball and secure it quickly for the next phase paid huge dividends. They did it on defence as well, where there were three or four blokes flying into the breakdown and counter rucking to steal possession.

Of course it's hard to do this when your set piece is wobbly and that's what I'd be working on first and foremost. Shoring up winning your own ball and then putting the above into service. Once they get back on track with that, guys like Holloway, Phipps, Foley and Beale will run riot in open play, but not before.

 

[Gnostic]

What do you expect them to say? We're doing it wrong and are going to stop trying now?

How about some hard truth.

"That was woeful and inept. It was not up to the standard that we believe is not only a requirement of professional players but a responsibility. The players have acknowledged this and take responsibility for their underperformance. There will be changes made and we ask the fans to continue to support us as we make these important changes."

That actually accepts responsibility, whilst the other is just politician/lawyer weasel words which doesn't accept that anything is wrong.

 

[Groucho]

How about some hard truth.

"That was woeful and inept. It was not up to the standard that we believe is not only a requirement of professional players but a responsibility. The players have acknowledged this and take responsibility for their underperformance. There will be changes made and we ask the fans to continue to support us as we make these important changes."

That actually accepts responsibility, whilst the other is just politician/lawyer weasel words which doesn't accept that anything is wrong.

I think you'd have to be some kind of bodacious drama queen to say those things at this stage. Using up all your superlatives leaves you with nothing to say when the side really does play badly. That said, this is the Internet. As you were.

 

[old fella2]

How about some hard truth.

"That was woeful and inept. It was not up to the standard that we believe is not only a requirement of professional players but a responsibility. The players have acknowledged this and take responsibility for their underperformance. There will be changes made and we ask the fans to continue to support us as we make these important changes."

That actually accepts responsibility, whilst the other is just politician/lawyer weasel words which doesn't accept that anything is wrong.

Seriously, give it a break. The Waratahs were pipped by a team chockful of Wallabies. The Wallabies came, um, second in the world last year. It will not be a great year for the Waratahs, but they are blooding a lot of new and exciting young talent.

 

[Quick Hands]

Where do the players play most of their rugby. Not in age group sides, which have the same narrow focus and opportunity. It is with their clubs, when they get to play with them, Funny that for the flat track bullies the old amateur players could kick and pass with far more accuracy and consistency (in general) than many (not all) than modern full time professionals.

Perhaps a matter for another thread, but age group village club rugby is where these skills should be built. Unfortunately, what has happened is that where once there was village club rugby, with district rep teams in the even years only (10, 12, 14, 16, 18), a zone team in 15s and a Sydney team in 16s, there's now wall to wall rep stuff. District reps every year, zone from 14s on and then competing school and club reps in 16s and on it goes - with the JGC added on top. So everything now is a pathway, instead of just learning the game and the skills that go with it. The unstructured stuff has largely been eliminated as the better players no long have enough time - they're just moving along the pathway. Train with district reps @6 weeks, train with zone team @ 4 weeks, train with Sydney team about the same. All with different coaches, all with different forms of repetitive drills.

If it was working, it wouldn't be a problem, but watching suggests that the missing unstructured stuff is hindering player development. There's been number of studies on this in the US - repetitive drills assist to a point, but there overuse impedes skill development (particularly mental skills) and also works against retention.

 

[Groucho]

Perhaps a matter for another thread, but age group village club rugby is where these skills should be built. Unfortunately, what has happened is that where once there was village club rugby, with district rep teams in the even years only (10, 12, 14, 16, 18), a zone team in 15s and a Sydney team in 16s, there's now wall to wall rep stuff. District reps every year, zone from 14s on and then competing school and club reps in 16s and on it goes - with the JGC added on top. So everything now is a pathway, instead of just learning the game and the skills that go with it. The unstructured stuff has largely been eliminated as the better players no long have enough time - they're just moving along the pathway. Train with district reps @6 weeks, train with zone team @ 4 weeks, train with Sydney team about the same. All with different coaches, all with different forms of repetitive drills.

If it was working, it wouldn't be a problem, but watching suggests that the missing unstructured stuff is hindering player development. There's been number of studies on this in the US - repetitive drills assist to a point, but there overuse impedes skill development (particularly mental skills) and also works against retention.

Our kids undoubtedly come out of the age group system with inferior skills compared to the Kiwis.

 

[ForceFan]

Seriously, give it a break. The Waratahs were pipped by a team chockful of Wallabies. The Wallabies came, um, second in the world last year. It will not be a great year for the Waratahs, but they are blooding a lot of new and exciting young talent.

Suggest compare the two XXXIII:
The Waratahs 8 from the RWC squad + 3 other Wallabies.
The Brumbies had 7 from the Wallabies RWC squad, 3 other Wallabies + 1 Puma.
Both sides "are blooding a lot of new and exciting young talent".
The reality - one side continues to play better than the other in 2016.

 

[ForceFan]

G'day All

Have posted, on the dashboard, the Round 8 Ruck Analysis, including the Brumbies/Waratahs head-to-head and a comparison of Aussie No 7s.

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/Super Rugby-aussie-ruck-analysis-round-8/

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I'm reading a lot of criticism of Hooper this season, but does anyone know of any stats comparing 2016 and 2015?

 

[Froggy]

ForceFan,
Hugh Roach, 23, 5th run-on appearance, Robertson, 21, 1st run-on, Dempsey, 22, 3rd run-on, Holloway, 23, 5th (I think) run-on, Kellaway, 20, 1st run-on, Horwitz, 21, has had 3 run-ons. Say what you like, fella, to me that's blooding a lot of exciting new talent!

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I should add that I've read FF (Folau Fainga'a)'s article comparing the back rowers as of round 8. Thanks for that. Looking at the ball runners among the group, Hooper may be under some serious pressure from McMahon come test time. Maybe have them both in the 23?

 

[ForceFan]

ForceFan,
Hugh Roach, 23, 5th run-on appearance, Robertson, 21, 1st run-on, Dempsey, 22, 3rd run-on, Holloway, 23, 5th (I think) run-on, Kellaway, 20, 1st run-on, Horwitz, 21, has had 3 run-ons. Say what you like, fella, to me that's blooding a lot of exciting new talent!

Similarly the Brumbies: Les Makin, 23, Tom Staniforth, 21, Joe Powell, 21.

I think that it's great that we get this injection of new blood after each RWC,

 

[ForceFan]

Did anyone else see Matt To'omua get knocked out, albeit momentarily, when he feel backwards out of a ruck and collapsed onto the ground like a rag doll?
It happened at 52:47 on the game clock.
Matt appeared to recover fairly quickly but surprisingly there was no medical check.
Hasn't he had problems with concussion previously?

 

[Brumby Runner]

Similarly the Brumbies: Les Makin, 23, Tom Staniforth, 21, Joe Powell, 21.

I think that it's great that we get this injection of new blood after each RWC,

I would think Alan Ala'alatoa and Michael Wells would probably fit into that category as well.