Waratahs 2022

[Jimmy_Crouch]

If HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes) plays the season at tighthead again you will see some huge improvements. I thought his improvement was evident towards the back end.

The bloke is 24 and trying to learn how to become a tighthead in Super Rugby. Big effort.

 

[eastman]

Largely this is where they need to recruit.

The under 23 group at the Waratahs is probably the best it has been for a long time (part of the most talented under 20 cohort Australia has had in a decade).

The problem has been that they shouldn't be the core of the team.

Agreed. Adding two or three established players is not going to make this Waratahs team suddenly successful; at best it might make us competitive in the Aus. conference (fighting for third) but still unlikely to win a game in NZ. A team with Harrison/ Donaldson starting at 10/15 won't be winning games consistently for 2-3 years.

 

[dru]

Success is being one of the strongest Oz franchises.

success is not taking a shell of a squad, adding a stack of experienced players and winning a handful of games.

Edit: the latter might be an acceptable milestone next year, on the way to being successful.

ILTW, I just think you may need to temper expectations. If not expectations then timing at least. Coleman is on board, he will need time.

 

[Braveheart81]

at best it might make us competitive in the Aus. conference

Let's start with that goal. When you're moving up from 5th out of 5 Australian teams there's no point trying to benchmark yourself against NZ teams that none of the Aussie teams were consistently competitive against.

 

[I like to watch]

Largely this is where they need to recruit.

The under 23 group at the Waratahs is probably the best it has been for a long time (part of the most talented under 20 cohort Australia has had in a decade).

The problem has been that they shouldn't be the core of the team.

Clearly.
and blind Freddy knows exactly that’s what he’s going to do.
but, as I said , if that results in a handful of wins.
that’s not a success.

 

[I like to watch]

ILTW, I just think you may need to temper expectations. If not expectations then timing at least. Coleman is on board, he will need time.

I have zero expectations.
there are many reasons why we were winless.
Had the temporary coach had access to a few experienced players, they, undoubtedly have won a couple of those games.

I’m suggesting, that if a coach comes in with a full pre season, has the funds to recruit said players, and they only win a handful of games.
Has he improved things?

 

[Derpus]

I have zero expectations.
there are many reasons why we were winless.
Had the temporary coach had access to a few experienced players, they, undoubtedly have won a couple of those games.

I’m suggesting, that if a coach comes in with a full pre season, has the funds to recruit said players, and they only win a handful of games.
Has he improved things?

Obviously. A handful of games is better than zero? I dont understand what you are saying.

 

[I like to watch]

With the same squad it might.
the new guy gets to spend an extra 20% on players next year, and has a stack of young players starting the year a lot more experienced.

i have no doubt had the temporary coaches been retained, they would have won a handful of games next year with a 20% larger budget.

so a new guy coming in and only winning a few games has not really improved the status quo IMO.

 

[Derpus]

So an actual improvement is not an improvement because it was an actual improvement you think would have been achieved by changing nothing?

Righto then.

 

[Drew]

If HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes) plays the season at tighthead again you will see some huge improvements. I thought his improvement was evident towards the back end.

The bloke is 24 and trying to learn how to become a tighthead in Super Rugby. Big effort.

No throw him on the trash heap. He usually tops the tackle count, is involved in every ruck and maul, pilfers opposition ball, scores tries and holds his side of the scrum up. Jokes aside, at the start of the season he wasn’t as good as the year before because he bulked up for the tight head role. Once he got used to the extra weight he was doing all the unfashionable work that every team needs. Sure he’s not as dominant at scrum time as Tupou, but he doesn’t have a huge derrière like Tupou which is somehow an excuse for not packing straight. Like you say, he’s young and is going to improve.

 

[Pass it to Dunning!]

I'm very much a HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes) fan. If I could pick three players from this year's squad, I'd pick him as one of them.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I know you really mean the NSWRU, but you so used to blamimng NZRU for all of rugby's woes , but

Lol

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I have zero expectations.
there are many reasons why we were winless.
Had the temporary coach had access to a few experienced players, they, undoubtedly have won a couple of those games.

I’m suggesting, that if a coach comes in with a full pre season, has the funds to recruit said players, and they only win a handful of games.
Has he improved things?

I think we can’t expect miracles from Coleman and needs to be given time...

 

[Braveheart81]

With the same squad it might.
the new guy gets to spend an extra 20% on players next year, and has a stack of young players starting the year a lot more experienced.

i have no doubt had the temporary coaches been retained, they would have won a handful of games next year with a 20% larger budget.

so a new guy coming in and only winning a few games has not really improved the status quo IMO.

He still has to do those things though.

I also think it would be possible to spend 20% more on players and still finish dead last.

I don't think the Force and Rebels are particularly strong but I also don't think you can just turn up and expect to beat them. Clearly we were well off that this year.

I think the expectation would be that 4 wins in Super Rugby AU would be a successful first year for Coleman.

2 or 3 wins would be a pass.

 

[Braveheart81]

I'm very much a HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes) fan. If I could pick three players from this year's squad, I'd pick him as one of them.

I've always been a big HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes) fan. I do think THP recruitment is important for the Tahs but I also think HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes) needs to make himself a genuine starting THP at Super Rugby level at the very least.

He's a very good player and he needs to have higher expectations than being the reserve LHP which is what he'd be if he moved back.

The concept that his career has been ruined by being played at THP doesn't wash for me. LHP is easier but he had heaps of THP experience prior to Super Rugby before being picked there.

 

[I like to watch]

He still has to do those things though.

I also think it would be possible to spend 20% more on players and still finish dead last.

I don't think the Force and Rebels are particularly strong but I also don't think you can just turn up and expect to beat them. Clearly we were well off that this year.

I think the expectation would be that 4 wins in Super Rugby AU would be a successful first year for Coleman.

2 or 3 wins would be a pass.

Jeez, if you couldn’t improve this squad with an extra 20%, you should get a new career.

I feel we’ll be having this conversation on this site up to the time they let him go.

I’m adamant, he was a poor choice.
time will tell.

 

[Braveheart81]

Jeez, if you couldn’t improve this squad with an extra 20%, you should get a new career.

I feel we’ll be having this conversation on this site up to the time they let him go.

I’m adamant, he was a poor choice.
time will tell.

Of course you could improve the squad, but the extra 20% only puts you in the same ball park as what all your competition are spending (and probably less overall given 3 of the 4 other teams have more players receiving RA money now.).

You're making it sound like it would be impossible to still be the worst team if you had a similar player budget as the other teams. I'm not really sure how that is a reality. It would certainly be a failure, but I also don't think it's a given that having a proper player budget pushes us up to being middle of the pack.

 

[Wilson]

Jeez, if you couldn’t improve this squad with an extra 20%, you should get a new career.

I feel we’ll be having this conversation on this site up to the time they let him go.

I’m adamant, he was a poor choice.
time will tell.

What's a pass mark for next year then?

 

[I like to watch]

Not getting our arses handed to us.

if we are in the fight every week, the results will look after themselves.

if we win 3 but get flogged in most of our losses, it’s a fail to me.

if we win 3, but we are right in the game for 90% of the rest of the games, that’s an absolutely a better than expected result.

 

[Drew]

I've always been a big HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes) fan. I do think THP recruitment is important for the Tahs but I also think HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes) needs to make himself a genuine starting THP at Super Rugby level at the very least.

He's a very good player and he needs to have higher expectations than being the reserve LHP which is what he'd be if he moved back.

The concept that his career has been ruined by being played at THP doesn't wash for me. LHP is easier but he had heaps of THP experience prior to Super Rugby before being picked there.

He went from a wallaby cap and regular PONI squad member to not making a squad of 38 behind the two incumbents and Pone, a bloke who didn’t play TT because he was injured, is weak at scrummaging and his only dominant stat is his run metres which is bulked up by doing league style hit ups. I can’t imagine he’d be happy about that. Under 20s THP is a world away from scrummaging against hardened professionals, most get to serve an apprenticeship either at LHP or behind a seasoned THP. If, as some desire, we sign a more established THP, instead of showing faith in his development there and he rides the pine, we could lose the type of player you don’t miss until they’re gone to the Northern hemisphere or to another franchise.