Waratahs 2021

[Braveheart81]

Just checked google maps. Shortest walking distance Central Station to SFS 1.9km. Shortest walking distance Parra Station (not the closest point of it) to Bankwest 1.5km. A whole 400m shorter. What are you talking about, it needing to be closer?

It's a bad comparison though because the SFS/SCG are too far from Central Station as well to be reasonable for a lot of people (and up a decent hill).

The light rail has improved things substantially there though in terms of accessibility.

1.5km from the station isn't really what you'd consider ideal in terms of public transport access.

 

[wamberal]

Just read this article a few minutes ago and thought it gave great insight that a lot of discussions seem to not have. Especially the Rapp / Penney disagreements on play style and squad.

Bloody ridiculous when a no-name like Tim Rapp can lay down the law on basics like this to a reasonably well credentialed coach like Penney.

 

[Braveheart81]

This is also a great article, hits the nail on the head around player development and recruitment.2 years in shute shield should be a minimum, if they are good enough to get a contract at 19 let them prove themselves in a tough week in and week out environment.

This is always the challenge though. You can't wait to sign someone until they've played 2 years in Shute Shield because if they're good enough they'll be in demand elsewhere. The best players aren't going to play as amateurs for two years longer than they need to.

Likewise, if you do sign them, you've only got a certain number of spots in your squad where you can say that a person isn't going to play Super Rugby for 2 years and will instead develop in club rugby. For a lot that isn't going to be practical.

 

[Blazing Saddles]

This is always the challenge though. You can't wait to sign someone until they've played 2 years in Shute Shield because if they're good enough they'll be in demand elsewhere. The best players aren't going to play as amateurs for two years longer than they need to.

Likewise, if you do sign them, you've only got a certain number of spots in your squad where you can say that a person isn't going to play Super Rugby for 2 years and will instead develop in club rugby. For a lot that isn't going to be practical.

Agree it is difficult but 2-3 years of holding tackle pads and hardly any game time hits the confidence of the player, look at young Macauley for example, looking forward to seeing what he can achieve in a different setup. Would have liked to have seen him have a couple of solid years in Shute out of school.

 

[I like to watch]

Something similar to this is largely what has happened.

They have played home games at the SCG, BankWest, Brookvale, Newcastle and Wollongong while the SFS has been unavailable.

The SCG sucks but it has also drawn the biggest crowds and I don't think that is just from the SCG/SFS members.

Brookvale draws a good crowd but is a different demographic who mostly don't go to the games elsewhere and they lose out spectators from elsewhere. One Brookvale game a year is fine in my view but it is terrible to get to.

The SCG is the worst location they're playing at for watching games but the best location in terms of eating and drinking before and afterwards.

They also can't ignore their members. This is the core that has ultimately stuck by the team through thick and thin. That isn't easily replaced just by playing at a different stadium.

No, that’s what’s happening as a temporary measure during construction.

 

[Braveheart81]

Agree it is difficult but 2-3 years of holding tackle pads and hardly any game time hits the confidence of the player, look at young Macauley for example, looking forward to seeing what he can achieve in a different setup. Would have liked to have seen him have a couple of solid years in Shute out of school.

He played plenty of games for Easts over that time sprinkled with a few Super Rugby games.

No, that’s what’s happening as a temporary measure during construction.

I misunderstood you. You're saying that once the new SFS is built they should split their home games between multiple locations?

I think a split between SFS and BankWest would be reasonable but including too many grounds makes it a challenge in my view (as a long term member).

 

[barbarian]

Agree it is difficult but 2-3 years of holding tackle pads and hardly any game time hits the confidence of the player, look at young Macauley for example, looking forward to seeing what he can achieve in a different setup. Would have liked to have seen him have a couple of solid years in Shute out of school.

But non-playing Tahs squaddies still play Shute Shield, don't they? It's not like they are warehoused.

I actually think their youth identification has been pretty good these last few years. HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes), Swinton, Dempsey, Harrison, Mark N (Nawaqanitawase), Horton, Walton all look pretty good.

It's the pieces around them where they have failed. Blind Freddy has been able to see the issues at lock for at least three years but nothing has been done. Le Roux Routs looked risky from the start (given the Dud Roodt experience) and whoever made that decision should be put through the wringer.

Given the Tahs have deliberately underspent in 2021, surely it stands to reason they have budget capacity for 2022. If I were them I'd be clamouring for a big signature for next year. Get someone home like Skelton, Taqele, McMahon, Kerevi, anyone. Poach one of the good Reds, they have so many surely there are a few that we could grab.

Just get someone, anyone, to show the fans that better days are around the corner.
.

 

[Braveheart81]

I'm interested to know why so many have such a negative opinion of Andrew Hore as CEO.

In my view he's the one who finally started connecting the Waratahs back to the Shute Shield clubs and NSW Rugby in a broader sense rather than the Waratahs being a completely detached entity that really struggled to connect to the broader rugby community.

The recruitment of young players has been better than it has at any point over the time I have followed the Waratahs. It's definitely needed because we've got nothing else but for a long time we kept missing out on our best young players who sought opportunities elsewhere.

Hore definitely shoulders blame for coaching appointments but I'm also not sure I can disconnect that from Davis and the board. Surely they hold sway there too. Bad coaching decisions have been made over a long period of time (outside of signing Cheika). Hore isn't the common denominator through that whole time unlike others.

 

[Rob42]

I'm interested to know why so many have such a negative opinion of Andrew Hore as CEO.

In my view he's the one who finally started connecting the Waratahs back to the Shute Shield clubs and NSW Rugby in a broader sense rather than the Waratahs being a completely detached entity that really struggled to connect to the broader rugby community.

The recruitment of young players has been better than it has at any point over the time I have followed the Waratahs. It's definitely needed because we've got nothing else but for a long time we kept missing out on our best young players who sought opportunities elsewhere.

Hore definitely shoulders blame for coaching appointments but I'm also not sure I can disconnect that from Davis and the board. Surely they hold sway there too. Bad coaching decisions have been made over a long period of time (outside of signing Cheika). Hore isn't the common denominator through that whole time unlike others.

Yeah, I'm sure Hore did some good things, I agree the increased connection to community rugby is a good thing and needs to improve further. But the whole Gibson-Cron-Penney thing, followed immediately by Hore's departure, looked shambolic.

But it's the board that has to own this situation - we can't lay the blame at a single CEO, let alone head coach. Developing an organisation that rivals the Crusaders or Brumbies needs good leadership from the board over 10 years or more.

As ever, of course, no comment from the chairman on any of this.

 

[VassMan]

Who's on the wishlist for next year? A THP and some locks, but who?

 

[Adam84]

That was a state government initiative to upgrade sporting facilities, if they were prepared to share the place

Like concord oval

https://www.canadabay.nsw.gov.au/co...opment-projects/redevelopment-of-concord-oval

It was discussed at the time when the opposition demanded what compensation was to be offered, and the discussion for the Waratahs was that the compensation would offered through a training facility.

 

[RugbyReg]

It's a bad comparison though because the SFS/SCG are too far from Central Station as well to be reasonable for a lot of people (and up a decent hill).

The light rail has improved things substantially there though in terms of accessibility.

1.5km from the station isn't really what you'd consider ideal in terms of public transport access.

600m from Milton Station to Suncorp.

1km from Roma Street which is more central to the city.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

This is also a great article, hits the nail on the head around player development and recruitment.2 years in shute shield should be a minimum, if they are good enough to get a contract at 19 let them prove themselves in a tough week in and week out environment.
https://www.foxsports.com.au/rugby/...y/news-story/c94a350aedf88c33fbacc713029fda0f

Then there needs to be more put into raising the level of the Shute Shield if that's going to be the pathway. Which I'm not against. Or look to maintain and properly resource the NRC.

 

[RugbyReg]

Who's on the wishlist for next year? A THP and some locks, but who?

1 Angus Bell
2 Tolu Latu
3 HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes)
4 Izack Rodda
5 Will Skelton
6 Lachlan Swinton
7 Michael Hooper
8 Caleb Timu
9 Jake Gordon
10 Will Harrison
11 James Ramm
12 Joey Walton
13 Samu Kerevi
14 Mark Nawaqanitawase
15 Jack Maddocks

Assume you guys have $10M spare?

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Agree it is difficult but 2-3 years of holding tackle pads and hardly any game time hits the confidence of the player, look at young Macauley for example, looking forward to seeing what he can achieve in a different setup. Would have liked to have seen him have a couple of solid years in Shute out of school.

As Braveheart suggests the likes of McCauley did actually spend a fair bit of time in the Shute Shield. What has always been needed is one of two things. Either the Shute Shield moves to become a lower level professional structure allowing for players to better focus on Rugby or we maintain the NRC but look to properly resource it.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

1 Angus Bell
2 Tolu Latu
3 HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes)
4 Izack Rodda
5 Will Skelton
6 Lachlan Swinton
7 Michael Hooper
8 Caleb Timu
9 Jake Gordon
10 Will Harrison
11 James Ramm
12 Joey Walton
13 Samu Kerevi
14 Mark Nawaqanitawase
15 Jack Maddocks

Assume you guys have $10M spare?

I actually think we'd only need Rodda and Skelton from that list.

 

[Blackadder]

I'm interested to know why so many have such a negative opinion of Andrew Hore as CEO.

In my view he's the one who finally started connecting the Waratahs back to the Shute Shield clubs and NSW Rugby in a broader sense rather than the Waratahs being a completely detached entity that really struggled to connect to the broader rugby community.

The recruitment of young players has been better than it has at any point over the time I have followed the Waratahs. It's definitely needed because we've got nothing else but for a long time we kept missing out on our best young players who sought opportunities elsewhere.

Hore definitely shoulders blame for coaching appointments but I'm also not sure I can disconnect that from Davis and the board. Surely they hold sway there too. Bad coaching decisions have been made over a long period of time (outside of signing Cheika). Hore isn't the common denominator through that whole time unlike others.

Well let's see

Coaching:

Gibson, Gibson and Gibson. Hore defended him and ignored the 2017 review to sack Gibson. The Tahs were a basket case on the field despite experienced players but Hore kept re-signing him and let him run the team like a bunch of headless chooks.

The Cron situation. Do I think Cron was ready to take over? No, but he should not have been told through the media that he had things to work on. Hell no. Cron should have been kept long term and given the experience he needed and then given the opportunity. Hore told him no and now he is gone.

Why did Hooper go to play under Cron? Hmmm??

Recruitment:

Young players when Hore was in charge??? You mean Adam Ashley Cooper?? TPN???
Gibson and Hore recruited older players and Gibson didn't develop many kids because he didn't know how.

Did the Tahs buy what they needed??? No and the CEO is the one signing off on recruits despite the failures on the field. Did he go to the coaching staff, lets look at the reason we suck on the field and recruit to improve?? Nah lets leave best mate Gibson run the headless chooks.

Stadiums:
Travelling circus was good, I mean small crowds were great right?? Playing in Newcastle a strong league area not once but twice was a great idea? Failed the first time, lets go back and fail crowd wise again.

Want to spread the game pick 3 stadiums, your main two and one other to try to see if there is interest. If not move on.

NRC and Shute shield:
Connecting with the Shute shield?? Not much.

NRC was never taken seriously buy the Waratahs or NSW rugby. Hore should have made sure it was backed correctly so kids and depth got the experience they needed to see what further development they needed. Nah just look at the Reds and how they used it compared to NSW. Hore should have used it with clear plans for recruitment, retention and development

2019:
Well Hore re-signed best mate Gibson before a ball is kicked. The put an option in his favour. Yep in 2018 the Tahs made the finals buy only beating one top 8 side. False sense of achievement.
Team went to crap on the field that most could see except Hore.

Then when he could tell that best mate Gibson was going to get thrown out he showed his true professionalism and ran off leaving the Tahs in a mess, a new coach with little say in his side. Great CEO showing how unprofessional he was.

Defending things Hore did with years of failure is part of the reason the Tahs are in the mess they are in now.

 

[Blackadder]

1 Angus Bell
2 Tolu Latu
3 HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes)
4 Izack Rodda
5 Will Skelton
6 Lachlan Swinton
7 Michael Hooper
8 Caleb Timu
9 Jake Gordon
10 Will Harrison
11 James Ramm
12 Joey Walton
13 Samu Kerevi
14 Mark Nawaqanitawase
15 Jack Maddocks

Assume you guys have $10M spare?

Just a second I'll just go to the car and get my wallet......

 

[barbarian]

NRC was never taken seriously buy the Waratahs or NSW rugby. Hore should have made sure it was backed correctly so kids and depth got the experience they needed to see what further development they needed. Nah just look at the Reds and how they used it compared to NSW. Hore should have used it with clear plans for recruitment, retention and development

.

I want to question this as I've seen it repeated a few places and I'm not sure it's true.

At the outset of the NRC, the decision was taken in NSW to let the clubs take ownership of the local sides. I remember that being applauded at the time as it was seen to best harness the power and parochial nature of the Shute Shield.

While this meant on-field results weren't maybe as strong as they could have been, it also meant teams were relatively well supported, especially the Rays and Rams.

Now if you had a time machine and could go back, maybe you'd do things like they did in Queensland, but that would risk alienating the Shute Shield clubs who might see it as yet another power grab by the NSWRU.

So I don't think this approach was/is a huge indictment against the NSWRU.

 

[Rebels3]

As Braveheart suggests the likes of McCauley did actually spend a fair bit of time in the Shute Shield. What has always been needed is one of two things. Either the Shute Shield moves to become a lower level professional structure allowing for players to better focus on Rugby or we maintain the NRC but look to properly resource it.

Players not playing any SS is one of the many myths that fester in Aus rugby and are given so much airtime.