Waratahs 2021

[Rugbynutter39]

I think on paper our squad is comparatively better than it was last year relative to the other sides.

Brumbies and Reds are still out in front but I think we're closer to the Rebels than last year and I like our chances finishing above them.

Force squad has improved a fair bit but I think they'll still finish last.

I think you're rating things too much on names rather than assessing actual performances.

No I disagree with that as assessing actual performances ie last time I checked Tahs came second last last AU season and indeed lost their best and most consistent player with Hooper, all their locks (hence unproven bunch of new locks).....plus they lost experience with hunt for gain of Perese (latter big question mark over whether he will deliver given recent history). I am not btw criticising letting go of hunt given age etc but rather commenting on what they have brought in the backs does not inspire they have done anything to improve the quality.

Happy to be proven wrong BH but my view not changed and I don't agree with your views as you seem to forget they still came second last last AU and other sides (outside of Rebels) have either kept their squads or improved (in Force case the team below them - significantly). Lets wait and see how Tahs go but gaps and depth issues across the park to me to make me think they will struggle. To my mind it is them battling the wooden spoon with the Rebels.

If I could bet on Tahs coming last at TAB for bit of fun might put $20 down....

Who knows you and Reg may be right or I could be - lets wait and see as no problem eating humble pie as would actually be glad to be wrong even if meant losing $20 bet lol..

NSW is key rugby market so a strong super rugby side important for rebuilding super rugby so do seriously hope I am wrong but just can't see what you see.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

My assessment of proposed starting side mentioned by other posters cf to last years side.

Bell - no change
Horton - no change
HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes) - no change
Whetton - vs Simmons - Simmons thought had best season for a while and was a wallaby -
Wykes - journeyman - also Hanigan had very good season and made wallabies -
Swinton - no change
Tizzano - with respect - Hooper most consistent best player and wallaby - big step down. And no disrespect to Tizzano.
Dempsey- no change - but form wise still unproven for consistency as not the player he was and Harris equally not shown much yet
Gordon - not a huge fan and no change and back up options probably slightly weaker
Harrison - hope he does not get injured as depth behind him non existent as super rugby ready
Ramm - no change
Moeroa - played next to no games and had one good final game where played so big unknown at this stage as otherwise why did they not start him earlier....
Walton - no change
Perese- replaces hunt - unknown given history
Maddocks - no change but last season was very hot and cold.

BH can you explain where you commentary differs on the above to show me where better side on paper relative to other sides this year cf last year...

 

[Derpus]

And yet they will monopolise the public broadcast along with Reds.

Surely they just looked at broadcast figures to determine where to pitch the matches, right? Otherwise yeah, dumb af.

 

[Braveheart81]

Happy to be proven wrong BH but my view not changed and I don't agree with your views as you seem to forget they still came second last last AU and other sides (outside of Rebels) have either kept their squads or improved (in Force case the team below them - significantly). Lets wait and see how Tahs go but gaps and depth issues across the park to me to make me think they will struggle. To my mind it is them battling the wooden spoon with the Rebels.

This is what I am measuring them against. The fact that they did come second last in 2020.

You and others are of the view that things look much worse this year. I disagree with that. I think they look a little better.

I am predicting we finish 3rd out of the 5 teams so I'm hardly predicting big things.

I don't think the Force recruitment is going to improve them substantially and I think the Rebels will go backwards.

 

[Braveheart81]

And yet they will monopolise the public broadcast along with Reds.

The Waratahs and Reds attract the most viewers because they are from the two biggest rugby states. They will always get more of the prime broadcast slots.

 

[Braveheart81]

With the Top League getting postponed due to COVID, I wonder what that means for players like Hooper who are over there for one season. If it doesn't end up going ahead, will he get paid for not playing and potentially be able to return early?

 

[Rugbynutter39]

This is what I am measuring them against. The fact that they did come second last in 2020.

You and others are of the view that things look much worse this year. I disagree with that. I think they look a little better.

I am predicting we finish 3rd out of the 5 teams so I'm hardly predicting big things.

I don't think the Force recruitment is going to improve them substantially and I think the Rebels will go backwards.

Fair enough mate...3rd would be a great outcome. I hope you are right and I am wrong as a Tahs supporter.

 

[KiwiM]

BH can you explain where you commentary differs on the above to show me where better side on paper relative to other sides this year cf last year.

You don't seem to account for player development/growth at all.

For Harrison, Bell, Horton, Ramm etc you have put "no change".

Those players having now got a taste of Super Rugby should continue to develop and get better - heck you could see those players develop during last year and a number of them were brought into the Wallaby environment.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

You don't seem to account for player development/growth at all.

For Harrison, Bell, Horton, Ramm etc you have put "no change".

Those players having now got a taste of Super Rugby should continue to develop and get better - heck you could see those players develop during last year and a number of them were brought into the Wallaby environment.

I did account for player growth / development as no change was whether change in players message but I guess to me same could be said for other sides with players they have for player development/growth and hence why still was not enough. Question is will just these players and their development be enough with other gaps discussed in same post and issues of lack of depth in key positions.


But yes what would agree is for Tahs to do well this season given lack of much recruitment of quality star power they would need to see lot of player / growth development of existing players (examples of which you mentioned) for that to happen.

 

[Blackadder]

NSW Waratahs | NSW Waratahs

Profile photos are up

 

[Derpus]

You don't seem to account for player development/growth at all.

For Harrison, Bell, Horton, Ramm etc you have put "no change".

Those players having now got a taste of Super Rugby should continue to develop and get better - heck you could see those players develop during last year and a number of them were brought into the Wallaby environment.

Bell even made the Wallabies and performed strongly.

 

[Braveheart81]

BH can you explain where you commentary differs on the above to show me where better side on paper relative to other sides this year cf last year.

As KiwiM said, the bulk of our players are young, showed promise last year (and mostly got better as the season went on) and should be better again in 2021.

Depth is definitely the biggest issue as we don't have a lot behind certain players.

Along with the Reds we have the most players who should be better than they were last year. There isn't a single player in our best 15 you'd expect to be worse than they were last year because they have passed their peak.

But yes what would agree is for Tahs to do well this season given lack of much recruitment of quality star power they would need to see lot of player / growth development of existing players (examples of which you mentioned) for that to happen.

I'm guessing you look at the Force recruits such as Rob Kearney and Tevita Kuridrani as bringing quality star power and while both might be improvements for them on last year, I see a couple of players well past their prime.

Cubelli and Lezana are the two key recruits for them in my opinion.

 

[eastman]

I'm guessing you look at the Force recruits such as Rob Kearney and Tevita Kuridrani as bringing quality star power and while both might be improvements for them on last year, I see a couple of players well past their prime.

Cubelli and Lezana are the two key recruits for them in my opinion.

I agree with everything you've said prior that many of our young players have potential and should improve, however it's hard to argue with the notion that they definitely lack 'star-power' and 'strike'.

It's a very different proposition from the days of KB (Kurtley Beale),IF, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) (in-form) and DM.

 

[Derpus]

I'm guessing you look at the Force recruits such as Rob Kearney and Tevita Kuridrani as bringing quality star power and while both might be improvements for them on last year, I see a couple of players well past their prime.

Cubelli and Lezana are the two key recruits for them in my opinion.

TK is only 29 and showed some decent form in the tail end of last season. He'll be as solid defensively as ever. I think 'well past his prime' is a bit of an exaggeration. If he finds a bit of form he should be in the frame for the Wallabies again.

Kearney is roughly a million years old, though.

 

[Jimmy_Crouch]

With the Top League getting postponed due to COVID, I wonder what that means for players like Hooper who are over there for one season. If it doesn't end up going ahead, will he get paid for not playing and potentially be able to return early?

Interesting to see if any other Aussies want to come home if the season doesn't go ahead and if we sign any. Will also likely see some pretty stacked SS and QPR teams again.

 

[Adam84]

Top League at this time has only been postponed until February, I’m sure they’ll try and squeeze out some form of competition this year.

 

[Braveheart81]

It's a very different proposition from the days of KB (Kurtley Beale),IF, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) (in-form) and DM.

And that's why we're fighting to be the third best Australian team rather than the best one.

 

[Rob42]

And don't forget we have a very good coaching team, who've now had a season with much of the squad. Penney and Gilmore are both noted for their ability to develop young players.

 

[Jimmyjam]

I think there is huge upside in the current Tahs squad. In believe there is potential in the current squad to surprise plenty and beat all the Aust Super Rugby teams on their day

A. Bell - We have the current Wallaby loose head prop who is potentially world class.
T Horton - Excellent skill set as a potential extra loose forward.
Porecki - Solid scrum and lineout operator.... the fundamentals for a hooker
HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes) - Solid in the scrum and also an excellent defender and menace at the breakdown.
Whetton - Big and strong, just the bloke to provide an upgrade on Staniforth and Hanigan
Wykes - Strong in the lineout and high work rate
Swinton - Recent Wallaby and will only get better
Tizzano - Has all the tools to make it in Super Rugby as a 7
Dempsey - We need more out of him but we know what he's capable of.
Gordon - Probably captain and will improve
Harrison - Superb skills and kicks at over 85%!!!
Ramm - Will get better as well.
Walton - Fast with great skillset, this guy will have a great year
Perese - Has all the tools, fast aggressive and a very good defender
Moroea - Big frame, but I'm still to be convinced about him.
Nawaqa - Has loads of upside but needs to defend better - great skillset
Maddocks - long kicker, fast, silky skills.

Yes I'm an optimist, but the backs we have this year are rapiers rather than sledgehammers. I can see them moving the ball into space, slick passing, good running lines etc.

Forwards maintain parity and I think we'll have a great year playing excellent rugby.

Injuries are the biggest potential worry..

 

[Rugbynutter39]

As KiwiM said, the bulk of our players are young, showed promise last year (and mostly got better as the season went on) and should be better again in 2021.

Depth is definitely the biggest issue as we don't have a lot behind certain players.

Along with the Reds we have the most players who should be better than they were last year. There isn't a single player in our best 15 you'd expect to be worse than they were last year because they have passed their peak.


I'm guessing you look at the Force recruits such as Rob Kearney and Tevita Kuridrani as bringing quality star power and while both might be improvements for them on last year, I see a couple of players well past their prime.

Cubelli and Lezana are the two key recruits for them in my opinion.

For me I like the argentina recruits plus others like Robertson for prop stocks as well as former Reds 10 ( sorry I always forget names I do know - early dementia candidate!) and players like Toni Puli. I agree Rob Kearney was indifferent given age etc (actually I was non plussed as investing in player in mid 30s not what wanted to see personally). But reckon Tevita could surprise to the upside given still young and I think he just needs a new place to revitalise him perhaps....I actually think all the ARgentina players offer a lot of upside too. Missing out on Montonya dampened my view they could come 3rd though as I thought he is world class player that could add real edge and point of difference to Force pack.

Ps you make a lot of assumptions on why I think Force better which are wrong and not supported by any comments made