Waratahs 2020

[upthereds#!]

I think we euthanased that discussion a few posts up. No need to exhume the corpse.

fineeee. I was late to the party

 

[Bobby Sands]

Just an aside: why do we focus most singularly upon coach and player development etc failings (even if they are factual failings we can see and agree on as such), when the truly most culpable parties are the respective RU board of directors and RU CEOs whose fundamental responsibilities are to get HC choice, and the major strategic team-related policies surrounding HCs, right?

Eg, Richard Graham was a catastrophically bad coach for the Reds in his period there. But it was a stubborn, egotistical then Chairman of the QRU whom drove for his initial appointment and then refused to listen to the many legitimate critics (including some on his own QRU board) that, almost from the first, advised him that Graham would be/was being a disaster for the Reds. Were the appalling Reds outcomes under Graham truly, in the deeper sense, just his fault?

It all starts and, over time, finishes at the top. No organisation is EVER of a higher calibre than that demonstrated and delivered by an entity's highest supervisory body.

Remember when Graham got re-appointed?

Was the darkest day in history for a Reds supporter - almost comical in hindsight.

Bizarre that a bloke who could genuinely play footy could have such a lack of a clue when coaching. I know good players quite often don’t make good coaches, but gees he takes the cake, the cutlery and the napkins.

 

[Froggy]

Your spot on about the difference between a good player and a good coach. Some of this country's best coaches (Dwyer, MacQueen, Jones) weren't extraordinary players.

 

[wamberal]

Your spot on about the difference between a good player and a good coach. Some of this country's best coaches (Dwyer, MacQueen, Jones) weren't extraordinary players.

Those three were pretty ordinary, to put it as gently as I can. And we won't mention the other Jones, who never played the game, but led the Wobbs to our first Grand Slam.

 

[Bobby Sands]

Your spot on about the difference between a good player and a good coach. Some of this country's best coaches (Dwyer, MacQueen, Jones) weren't extraordinary players.

I was told recently that Alan Jones wasn't even a coach, and that Alec Evans (I am pretty sure it was him) was the actual coach and that Alan was the "manager."

This would make sense to me, as I have never heard any detail in Alan's commentary of the game to suggest that he could coach the Wallabies.

 

[RedsHappy]

Remember when Graham got re-appointed?

Was the darkest day in history for a Reds supporter - almost comical in hindsight.

Bizarre that a bloke who could genuinely play footy could have such a lack of a clue when coaching. I know good players quite often don’t make good coaches, but gees he takes the cake, the cutlery and the napkins.

Indelibly inked on my neurons Bobby. And, even worse to add insult to injury, it came after that ludicrous QRU charade 'following a serious global search for HC candidates'. This allegedly 'serious, rigorous global search' established that........Richard Graham was definitely the best possible available HC for the Reds.

All the fantastic momentum established by Link and his successful coaching team was destroyed in a stroke when in April 2012 the QRU decided Graham was the worthy successor, a 'good QLD rugby man'.

The next dark age of the QRU and its Reds had begun.

 

[Silverado]

I was told recently that Alan Jones wasn't even a coach, and that Alec Evans (I am pretty sure it was him) was the actual coach and that Alan was the "manager."

This would make sense to me, as I have never heard any detail in Alan's commentary of the game to suggest that he could coach the Wallabies.

Yeah, Jones was more of a Winston Churchill like motivator. He had the rhetoric and surrounded himself with good coaching staff.

 

[RedsHappy]

I was told recently that Alan Jones wasn't even a coach, and that Alec Evans (I am pretty sure it was him) was the actual coach and that Alan was the "manager."

This would make sense to me, as I have never heard any detail in Alan's commentary of the game to suggest that he could coach the Wallabies.

Whatever the merits of your observation above, A Jones did have elements of a successful coaching pedigree well prior to the Wallabies and so on. He head coached The King's School GPS rugby 1st XV to, as I recall, many NSW GPS comp wins in that role and when he was teacher at TKS.

 

[Silverado]

Whatever the merits of your observation above, A Jones did have elements of a successful coaching pedigree well prior to the Wallabies and so on. He head coached The King's School GPS rugby 1st XV to, as I recall, many NSW GPS comp wins in that role and when he was teacher at TKS.

Kind of. He coached the Kings 1st XV to an undefeated title in 1974 and left in 1975. He did coach Manly to their first SS win since the 1950s in '83 too

 

[Bobby Sands]

Indelibly inked on my neurons Bobby. And, even worse to add insult to injury, it came after that ludicrous QRU charade 'following a serious global search for HC candidates'. This allegedly 'serious, rigorous global search' established that....Richard Graham was definitely the best possible available HC for the Reds.

All the fantastic momentum established by Link and his successful coaching team was destroyed in a stroke when in April 2012 the QRU decided Graham was the worthy successor, a 'good QLD rugby man'.

The next dark age of the QRU and its Reds had begun.

Dont want to hi-jack the Tahs thread, but that decision coincided with me moving to Melbourne, giving up on rugby for a bit and falling in love with the Richmond Tigers. I just couldn't stomach the ineptitude.

 

[Bobby Sands]

Yeah, Jones was more of a Winston Churchill like motivator. He had the rhetoric and surrounded himself with good coaching staff.

A Rod McQueen type operator

 

[molman]

Your spot on about the difference between a good player and a good coach. Some of this country's best coaches (Dwyer, MacQueen, Jones) weren't extraordinary players.

I've had it put to me that it is actually harder for those exceptional players to sometimes connect, communicate and motivate players because much of what they did as a players was so innate to who they were. Where as those players who were not as gifted but had to slog through things can often better aside others in growing and developing.


It'd be hard to quantify but I can see how there might be some truth in it. Correlates somewhat with what I'd heard about Larkham a coach.

I was told recently that Alan Jones wasn't even a coach, and that Alec Evans (I am pretty sure it was him) was the actual coach and that Alan was the "manager."

This would make sense to me, as I have never heard any detail in Alan's commentary of the game to suggest that he could coach the Wallabies.

I heard Stuart Lancaster talk recently about the difference in being an international coach and club coach recently. I think the reality is that being a International HC is much more of a manager role with less time in the tracksuit. As such the Alan Jones role is probably not as far from the modern reality for many teams. That's why as I said earlier we need to stop fixating on just the HC and start looking at the coaching team.

I think this reality was no more apparent than in the latest appointment of a new NZ coach where it was so much about what team each candidate had assembled.

 

[Bobby Sands]

I heard Stuart Lancaster talk recently about the difference in being an international coach and club coach recently. I think the reality is that being a International HC is much more of a manager role with less time in the tracksuit. As such the Alan Jones role is probably not as far from the modern reality for many teams. That's why as I said earlier we need to stop fixating on just the HC and start looking at the coaching team.

I think this reality was no more apparent than in the latest appointment of a new NZ coach where it was so much about what team each candidate had assembled.

That is definitely not lost on me, and I agree. But the version I got was that Alan was just a talking head.

 

[molman]

That is definitely not lost on me, and I agree. But the version I got was that Alan was just a talking head.

Wouldn't surprise me (he's made a job of the whole talking head after all) and in that era you probably could get away with it even more-so. He must have had 'some' chops though as he did do ok with Manly in the Shute.

There was a wealth of riches player wise back then. I mean the Ella's really were something special.

 

[molman]

Bringing the thread back to the Tah's, Ned still on the mend. Another two weeks from return at earliest.

https://www.rugby.com.au/news/2020/02/26/super-rugby-waratahs-hanigan-concussion

So happy they take this stuff seriously these days. Looking forward to seeing him back, but still young so no need to rush as much as we could do with him back.

Penney also admitted that he was growing tired of signs of poor work ethic within games.
"I actually think there are moments in the game where you can question the work ethic and the commitment to each other," he said.

"There are times when that the talentless tasks of working hard and committing yourself totally to whatever you're involved in at the time isn't happening and that's reflected in being opened up a few times in defence and that's caused a large degree of frustration on both sides, playing and management.

"You can make a whole lot of excuses for those things and at the end of the day if you work really hard and you put your body in a position to be able to make a defensive effort or to carry the ball hard and you look after the pill, there's a whole lot of guys out in club land that could do that effectively and with passion and they are the sort of tasks that we're really disappointed that we're not able to achieve more consistently.

This. Some interesting comments from Penney. I liked the honesty. I don't love to see my team loose, but if you see the effort you can at least find some peace. It's that working hard element that just stands in such stark contrast to the Brumbies. I hope he is able to turn this aspect of the culture around.

 

[Braveheart81]

Which Jones?

I think he meant Eddie Jones.

Applies even moreso to Alan Jones but also difficult to compare to that era.

 

[The Honey Badger]

I think he meant Eddie Jones.

Applies even moreso to Alan Jones but also difficult to compare to that era.

yeah, I know that now. Shot the post out too quickly before reading the rest of the posts.

 

[wamberal]

Eddie Jones was arguably the most successful of them as a player. He represented NSW. And he was the first grade hooker at Randwick when Phil Kearns was plucked from the twos to take the Wallaby hooker position.

 

[Braveheart81]

I guess the next question is which outstanding players have gone on to become top shelf coaches?

Clive Woodward and Rassie Erasmus played tests and won a Rugby World Cup as coach so they must be right near the top of the list.

Scott Robertson was capped 22 times for the All Blacks and has won Super Rugby twice as a coach so that certainly puts him up there.

Brad Thorn and Stephen Larkham both fit the description as players but neither have made it that far as a coach yet.

 

[Strewthcobber]

World Cup winner Ewen McKenzie could have been!