Waratahs 2018
- Thread starter Micheal
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Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
Lack of big boppers? That's is just a trick of perception.
We all remember Finnegan as huge, but he wasn't any bigger than Elsom, but he had far more power in contact. Wille O ended his career over 130KG but was 110-115 for most of it and again more power in contact (attack and defence) than any Australian backrow forward than any bar none, except perhaps Daniel Manu.
The thing is we can talk about individuals as much as we like, but the fact is the great NSW teams, including 2014 had balance in the pack. 2014 was superb with Dennis and Mumm combining with Douglas Potgeiter, Skelton and Palu to allow Hooper the free running mode he can dominate. Without Douglas (or somebody filling that role in the lineout and tight ruck work and a replacement) as I said at the end of 2014 the pack was flawed. With Jackpot injured and then gone it fell apart.
High workrate forwards just have to be balanced with specialists and impact.
If we look back at the great NSW side that destroyed the Welsh test team it had brilliant balance for the game at that time throughout the pack but most especially in the backrow.
To my mind it is what has been missing at both Tahs level and test level for years, with workrate being preferred over actual effectiveness at what they do, and at this stage of his career Hanigan is a prime example, and looking at the actual stats his body size is nothing to do with the equation, it is all about technique and application.
We all remember Finnegan as huge, but he wasn't any bigger than Elsom, but he had far more power in contact. Wille O ended his career over 130KG but was 110-115 for most of it and again more power in contact (attack and defence) than any Australian backrow forward than any bar none, except perhaps Daniel Manu.
The thing is we can talk about individuals as much as we like, but the fact is the great NSW teams, including 2014 had balance in the pack. 2014 was superb with Dennis and Mumm combining with Douglas Potgeiter, Skelton and Palu to allow Hooper the free running mode he can dominate. Without Douglas (or somebody filling that role in the lineout and tight ruck work and a replacement) as I said at the end of 2014 the pack was flawed. With Jackpot injured and then gone it fell apart.
High workrate forwards just have to be balanced with specialists and impact.
If we look back at the great NSW side that destroyed the Welsh test team it had brilliant balance for the game at that time throughout the pack but most especially in the backrow.
To my mind it is what has been missing at both Tahs level and test level for years, with workrate being preferred over actual effectiveness at what they do, and at this stage of his career Hanigan is a prime example, and looking at the actual stats his body size is nothing to do with the equation, it is all about technique and application.
Jimmy_Crouch
Peter Johnson (47)
Accuracy at the breakdown is the key. Jackpot and Douglas were extremely good in this area. We need to improve but I am not sure Simmons or Staniforth will do this. Hanigan, Dempsey, Holloway and Wells (the 6 &8s) will need to lift.
T
TOCC
Guest
That was 20 years ago though, those players were bigger relative to their peers at the time. You can’t compare them directly to a player today without considering the variables.
Players are getting bigger and stronger every year due to improvements in S&C practices. In 1995 the average English rugby player weight was 92kg, today it’s 105kg.
Willie-O was a giant at the time, Finnegan was also a massive unit. It’s hard to play the game of hypotheticals, i would be interested to see what weight they could have played at under modern S&C regimes.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Its not just the S&C - everyone's getting bigger: except rugby league players
RoffsChoice
Jim Lenehan (48)
From the outside, I'd say your forward pack picks itself: Ryan, Latu, Kepu, Simmons, Power, Dempsey, Hooper, Holloway. Kepu's probably the only one who you could call a "big bopper", but that pack is still strong. If you signed a class loosehead and manage to pick up Coleman from the Force, it's a pack that's good enough to take you to a title.
TSR
Andrew Slack (58)
Did you forget Robertson & Hanigan or do you not think they'll make the cut?
Strewthcobber
Simon Poidevin (60)
I don't know - Nelson Asofa-Solomona looked like a classic union lock running around in the GF last night
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I think it's because the classic league centre is now about 190+cm and 100+kg.
Outside of the "skill" positions there aren't many guys who aren't really big.
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Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
Not really, compared to their peers of the time like Zinzan Brooke, Michael Jones, Richard Hill, Dalaglio, they were of a size. Average player sizes can be very misleading as the backs were indeed much smaller. However size is not the point, its about balance of skills and specialties.
RoffsChoice
Jim Lenehan (48)
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Great - he'll do a Thorne
Micheal
Alan Cameron (40)
Re: the team for next year, I'd be happy with:
1. Robertson
2. Latu
3. Kepu
4. Simmons
5. ?
6. Dempsey
7. Hooper
8. Holloway
9. Phipps
10. Foley
11. ?
12. Beale
13. Simone
14. ?
15. Folau
16. Ryan
17. (not convinced Roach is up to it)
18. Lolohea
19. Staniforth
20. Hanigan / Wells
21. Gordon
22. Mason
23. ?
For me, we have a solid spine but are lacking some some key positions.
Bench props are a bit shabby - Ainsley could be worth picking up.
Coleman for 2nd row would be a massive signing, as Staniforth / Simmons doesn't have the punch that you need to win a premiership.
Simone didn't fire last year, but he was also playing outside of Hegarty in a team that was struggling. I'd like to see what he can do outside Beale, but I certainly wouldn't be opposed to signing another 13. Rona or Meakes would be fantastic pick ups.
We're really lacking wings. Taqele is a great player to have in the squad, as he provides a point of difference, but I don't think he should be starting every game. It's a shame we're losing Harry Jones, as he was playing very well in the SS, and Kellaway is really in a hopeless patch of form (and not even looking very athletic? He doesn't seem to be in the best shape).
As a result, Newsome, Peni and Verity-Amm would be fantastic pick ups. Latunipulu has also looked great. Clay Uyen has looked alright from what I've seen.
Who should we be targeting for our Fijian Drua player?
I'd also like to see us start blooding Mason a bit more to build depth in that position (for both us and Australian Rugby). Bring him on at 10 for the last 20-30 for one of Foley or Beale to allow the other to assist Mason in leading the team around the park. I like how Kiwi sides often do this. They sub the fullback, slide the 10 to 15 and reduce the pressure on the rookie flyhalf to guide the team.
1. Robertson
2. Latu
3. Kepu
4. Simmons
5. ?
6. Dempsey
7. Hooper
8. Holloway
9. Phipps
10. Foley
11. ?
12. Beale
13. Simone
14. ?
15. Folau
16. Ryan
17. (not convinced Roach is up to it)
18. Lolohea
19. Staniforth
20. Hanigan / Wells
21. Gordon
22. Mason
23. ?
For me, we have a solid spine but are lacking some some key positions.
Bench props are a bit shabby - Ainsley could be worth picking up.
Coleman for 2nd row would be a massive signing, as Staniforth / Simmons doesn't have the punch that you need to win a premiership.
Simone didn't fire last year, but he was also playing outside of Hegarty in a team that was struggling. I'd like to see what he can do outside Beale, but I certainly wouldn't be opposed to signing another 13. Rona or Meakes would be fantastic pick ups.
We're really lacking wings. Taqele is a great player to have in the squad, as he provides a point of difference, but I don't think he should be starting every game. It's a shame we're losing Harry Jones, as he was playing very well in the SS, and Kellaway is really in a hopeless patch of form (and not even looking very athletic? He doesn't seem to be in the best shape).
As a result, Newsome, Peni and Verity-Amm would be fantastic pick ups. Latunipulu has also looked great. Clay Uyen has looked alright from what I've seen.
Who should we be targeting for our Fijian Drua player?
I'd also like to see us start blooding Mason a bit more to build depth in that position (for both us and Australian Rugby). Bring him on at 10 for the last 20-30 for one of Foley or Beale to allow the other to assist Mason in leading the team around the park. I like how Kiwi sides often do this. They sub the fullback, slide the 10 to 15 and reduce the pressure on the rookie flyhalf to guide the team.
wamberal
Phil Kearns (64)
One of those players who excel at one level, but kind of disappear at the next. I hope he proves me wrong this season.
Luke Jones was another.
It sounds like Newsome is a good chance of joining the Waratahs and I certainly hope he does.
I thought he was good again yesterday for the Eagles playing in a different position (13). He can play anywhere in the outside backs and has come a long way with his play in the last year or two.
Yeah, he made some big hits in defence but wasn't that threatening in attack. He's got a lot of promise so hopefully he continues to develop. I'm not pinning my hopes on him being a good starting XV option in 2018 though.
I thought he was good again yesterday for the Eagles playing in a different position (13). He can play anywhere in the outside backs and has come a long way with his play in the last year or two.
Yeah, he made some big hits in defence but wasn't that threatening in attack. He's got a lot of promise so hopefully he continues to develop. I'm not pinning my hopes on him being a good starting XV option in 2018 though.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
is Newsome more promising than Harry Jones?
I would say be a reasonable distance. I think Harry Jones biggest issue is still defence. Newsome is solid on both sides of the ball.
I would have liked to see Jones get an opportunity at Super Rugby level but I feel like the way he plays, particularly how often he kicks ahead for himself (and scores a lot of tries) at Shute Shield level is less likely to be successful at Super Rugby level and more likely to be punished.
Derpus
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Unfortunately, that looks a mid-table team at best. The backs are fine, and 'm sure we will dig up some competent wingers. The pack is looking a bit shaky though. Don't think Staniforth is good enough to be a consistent starter and Simmo didn't show much Super Rugby form last year. Starting front row is good but the bench leaves a bit to be desired.
We are still one injury away from Wells starting in the backrow again.
Simone seemed to stall pretty badly last year. Hopefully he pulls it together but i don't think he's good enough at this stage to be starting in the centres.
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