Waratahs 2018

[Quick Hands]

Big cleanout? Hopefully some decent signings are made soon. Maybe some of the Gen blue boys might get a few EPS contracts?

If there's to be a clean out then Roger Davis, the board and Daryl Gibson need to go before any one else. FFS we have a team half full of Wallabies and they look like they met in the car park before the match. Doesn't matter what players you bring into this shambles

 

[Inside Shoulder]

FFS Gibson can't even do his core job of coaching, now he's setting policy

Apparently he's behind turning super 20s into u19s

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Oh the holier than thou protestation against "fair weather fans". Your shit don't stink.

Mate I haven't been a member ever, simply because I don't live anywhere near getting to a game and when I did in the mid to late 90s I worked weekend night shifts every week. But I have been a supporter and purchaser of merchandise and Fox Subscriber. I just don't stick my head in the sand and excuse abjectly poor performance. If anybody performed at their jobs as poorly as these blokes do, getting paid what they do, working in one of my businesses they'd be out the door.

Funny the same people said exactly the same shit during the late Link years, the Hickey/Foley and Foley time.

Must be the same people involved in designing government projects like the VET scheme, power sell offs, pink bats, solar feed in tariffs .... Lots of thought bubbles and short term plans, no substance in implementations but everyone else's fault.

I gave up my membership when the Tahs lost on the bell to a Brown penalty and my youngest - about 6 - asked me on the way home: "dad, why can't we go for a decent team?"

 

[joeyjohnz]

FFS we have a team half full of Wallabies and they look like they met in the car park before the match. Doesn't matter what players you bring into this shambles

The problem is, the Tahs never deserved half a team of Wallabies in the first place.

Robertson, Hanigan, Mumm, Horne, Naiyaravoro, Dempsey are all barely Shield standard...

 

[wamberal]

If there's to be a clean out then Roger Davis, the board and Daryl Gibson need to go before any one else. FFS we have a team half full of Wallabies and they look like they met in the car park before the match. Doesn't matter what players you bring into this shambles

So no blame attaches to the players?

 

[p.Tah]

Boo-fuckin-hoo mate, we all joined Tahs because we knew some kids, as 14 year old, who were outstanding club players, and dam good too, and we wanted to follow them through. Some of these boys ended up as 16yo reps, schoolboy reps & U20 reps etc, they were a good, strong bunch of kids, who toured and held there own. You might remember, several years ago that NSW were dominate in schools, and later in U20, these players are now all over the place. WHO IS MONITORING THESE KIDS, and trying to keep them together. They would have now made made a great NSW pack/team. They talk about "pathways". FUCKOFF, Tahs have no idea. ME and my Waratah member mates, are sick of outsiders being parachuted into the squad from other codes or states, with no history, who shunt the boys we have been watching for years, down the pecking order. I want to follow my mates kids, and kids I know, through the system!

I'm hoping I'm misinterpreting this post but my read on this is outsiders aren't any good and my social networks bragging rights have been diminished due to the Tahs' selection policy.

 

[Froggy]

Well, there's something rotten in the state of Denmark, to go all Shakespearian. The current side just doesn't have the desire, the commitment to give every last ounce plus some to win for each other. To me, Fitzpatrick, Hanigan, Hooper, Phipps and Foley (possibly Kellaway but he really hasn't played enough lately to tell) are the only players with the desire, the hunger necessary at this level of sport (and I'm not suggesting they're the best players).

This is about culture, and having been in business for over 20 years, I am well aware culture starts at the top. Having said that, I can say the same thing for all the Aus super teams except the Force, which are the one team the currently clueless and out-of-their-depth ARU want to get rid of.

So that's Gibson. Remember, it's only three years since the Tahs were Super rugby champions, and two since they made the semi-finals. But if we sack Gibson (and pay whatever it costs to pay out his contract, as it has a year to go), where do we go from here? Please tell me who the coach is who is going to restore the culture that Cheika had in this group, and that's a genuine question, I welcome answers?

There are plenty on GAGR to criticise Cheika's selections, tactics etc, but you can't argue with what he does with the culture of a side. It was evident in the Tahs under him, and it was evident in the Wallabies during the WC. And at the moment, I would take a coach who can instill the right culture into the Tahs over a master tactician every day.

 

[Shadow]

Well, there's something rotten in the state of Denmark, to go all Shakespearian. The current side just doesn't have the desire, the commitment to give every last ounce plus some to win for each other. To me, Fitzpatrick, Hanigan, Hooper, Phipps and Foley (possibly Kellaway but he really hasn't played enough lately to tell) are the only players with the desire, the hunger necessary at this level of sport (and I'm not suggesting they're the best players).

This is about culture, and having been in business for over 20 years, I am well aware culture starts at the top. Having said that, I can say the same thing for all the Aus super teams except the Force, which are the one team the currentlyclueless and out-of-their-depth ARU want to get rid of.

So that's Gibson. Remember, it's only three years since the Tahs were Super rugby champions, and two since they made the semi-finals. But if we sack Gibson (and pay whatever it costs to pay out his contract, as it has a year to go), where do we go from here? Please tell me who the coach is who is going to restore the culture that Cheika had in this group, and that's a genuine question, I welcome answers?

There are plenty on GAGR to criticise Cheika's selections, tactics etc, but you can't argue with what he does with the culture of a side. It was evident in the Tahs under him, and it was evident in the Wallabies during the WC. And at the moment, I would take a coach who can instill the right culture into the Tahs over a master tactician every day.

 

[Shadow]

The issue with coaches is the selection and plucking someone out of some super system. Where is the reward for the coach who does the hard yards year after year
I will use Matt Barr from Souths as an example, why would someone like him not be worthy of consideration at an assistant coach
Dont have to be an ex star player to be a good coach
Plenty of them have been masssivd failures
Pat McCutcheon get the NSW 20s job
No one better qualified? Did they advertise?
This season we have 2 Kiwi coaches and a South African heading up our Super sides. Why coach in Australia ?

 

[gowaratahs]

let's start compiling our list of who should be cut from next year.

Gibson first, a new coach needs to pick the rest of the squad.

AFAIK, the flowing players have played their last games: Skelton, Mumm, Lucas, Horne, Horwitz, Robinson, Harry Jones.

Further, the following players are unsigned: Ta'Avao, Needs, Lolohea, Toleafoa, McCauley, McDuling, Maclean Jones, Wilkin, Deegan, Hegarty, Mason*, Simone.

Of the unsigned, Clarkie intimated last night that Mason was staying. If so, the squad so far looks like:

Robertson, Kepu, Ryan, Sandell
Latu, Fitzpatrick, Roach
Power, Staniforth*
Hooper, Dempsey, Hanigan, Wells, Holloway
Gordon, Phipps
Foley, Beale*, Mason
Folau, Naiyaravoro, Clark, Kellaway

That's 23 on the books. This year we had 36, plus Lolohea and Maclean Jones appeared, and the injured Power wasn't counted. Let's assume with the Rebels folding (surely?) the target is 40, with 32 full contracts and 8 "others".

Assuming Mason is upgraded, nine remaining full contracts to - Lomax (Rebels), Simmons (Reds), McCauley (EPS), Figg (Sevens), Timani (Rebels), Simone (EPS), Maddocks (Rebels), Hutchison (Sevens, though signed to Rebels), and why not Latunipulu (Southern Districts) at number 13.

The remaining 8 can come from NRC and schoolboys, including Deegan, Con Foley, etc. Lolohea might yet learn to scrummage, dreadful so far at the set piece though his size is useful.

Go Tahs!

 

[cyclopath]

Well, that escalated quickly.

Yeah, and all the trolls haven't even pitched in yet.

 

[Forcefield]

The issue with coaches is the selection and plucking someone out of some super system. Where is the reward for the coach who does the hard yards year after year
I will use Matt Barr from Souths as an example, why would someone like him not be worthy of consideration at an assistant coach
Dont have to be an ex star player to be a good coach
Plenty of them have been masssivd failures
Pat McCutcheon get the NSW 20s job
No one better qualified? Did they advertise?
This season we have 2 Kiwi coaches and a South African heading up our Super sides. Why coach in Australia ?

Which two Kiwi coaches?

Stiles, Larkham and Totality Tony are all Aussies.

 

[Shadow]

Which two Kiwi coaches?

Stiles, Larkham and Totality Tony are all Aussies.

 

[Shadow]

Sorry i thought Totally Tony was a kiwi, thanks for clearing that up for me

 

[Quick Hands]

So no blame attaches to the players?

Blame attaches to every one but the buck stops with the boss. Gibson has now been HC for 2 years and since the moment he started we've seen decline. He isn't up to the role either because he lacks the technical skills or the man management skills or both. A Shute Shield coach wouldn't survive after two seasons of this level of performance

 

[RedsHappy]

Blame attaches to every one but the buck stops with the boss. Gibson has now been HC for 2 years and since the moment he started we've seen decline. He isn't up to the role either because he lacks the technical skills or the man management skills or both. A Shute Shield coach wouldn't survive after two seasons of this level of performance

QH, the problem with this whole emerging 'the players are also at serious fault, they must take responsibility for their poor skills and attitudes and perhaps invest in their own skills-fixing outside the team' etc theory is that it singularly fails to deal with the obvious fact that teams that are well-coached like, say, most of the NZ teams, the Force 2017 (huge obvious improvements under Wessels and showing great application and effort), the RSA Lions (once were the 2nd-raters of RSA rugby now firing on all cylinders with great player attitudes and application) etc, these teams under good leadership do not display these 'poor skills and attitudinal problems' nearly as much as is the case inside teams that display all the other multitudinous signs of being poorly coached.

That is: there is compelling evidence to indicate that good rugby coaching and team leadership breeds significant positive uplifts in skills under pressure, consistent all-of-team attitude to hard work for the team, and general intensity of application.

(I notice the above theory is most prominent today in Tahs and Reds fans here and where these teams are manifestly weakly coached - that manifestation being in many other notable areas than just alleged individual poor skills and/or individual player's poor attitudes.)

This truth tends very much to emulate the same principle with well-led businesses - in companies where the top leadership sets excellent examples and runs the a firm well with an emphasis on objectively measured performance, positive culture and so on, you tend to find that employee morale and individual performance is at much higher levels than that of poorly led companies where senior leadership is absent, detached and communicates badly, etc.

 

[Quick Hands]

QH, the problem with this whole emerging 'the players are also at serious fault, they must take responsibility for their poor skills and attitudes and perhaps invest in their own skills-fixing outside the team' etc theory is that it singularly fails to deal with the obvious fact that teams that are well-coached like, say, most of the NZ teams, the Force 2017 (huge obvious improvements under Wessels and showing great application and effort), the RSA Lions (once were the 2nd-raters of RSA rugby now firing on all cylinders with great player attitudes and application) etc, these teams under good leadership do not display these 'poor skills and attitudinal problems' nearly as much as is the case inside teams that display all the other multitudinous signs of being poorly coached.

That is: there is compelling evidence to indicate that good rugby coaching and team leadership breeds significant positive uplifts in skills under pressure, consistent all-of-team attitude to hard work for the team, and general intensity of application.

(I notice the above theory is most prominent today in Tahs and Reds fans here and where these teams are manifestly weakly coached - that manifestation being in many other notable areas than just alleged individual poor skills and/or individual player's poor attitudes.)

This truth tends very much to emulate the same principle with well-led businesses - in companies where the top leadership sets excellent examples and runs the a firm well with an emphasis on objectively measured performance, positive culture and so on, you tend to find that employee morale and individual performance is at much higher levels than that of poorly led companies where senior leadership is absent, detached and communicates badly, etc.

Wessels is surely the example which puts this "it's not the fault of the coach" theory to bed. Here we have a young coach, who inherited a team which had been coached for three seasons by Michael Foley and before that by Richard Graham. Add to this that in comparison to the Waratahs and Gibson, Wessels had far less talent at his disposal - and he turns a team that played the most dire, low skill percentage rugby imaginable into a team which has finished second of the Australian conference and done so playing a good brand of rugby.

It must be another example of Australian rugby's unique uniqueness that coaches aren't responsible for the performance of a team. (Which is another flaw in the "coach not to blame" theory - it's a team game which requires the coach to make the unit greater than the sum of its parts).

Related to this of course is a further example of this unique uniqueness whereby CEOs, Chairmen and boards play no role and thus bear no responsibility for the performance of the organisation. (I'll bet if our teams were winning, you wouldn't be able to pick up a paper without Pulver, Clyne, Davis et al trumpeting their parts in the success).

 

[I like to watch]

^^^^^Funnily enough, there were plenty of reports that BP took great pleasure in entertaining the girls 7's in his Rio hotel suite after they won the gold....

Not such a high profile now.

 

[RedsHappy]

^^^^^Funnily enough, there were plenty of reports that BP took great pleasure in entertaining the girls 7's in his Rio hotel suite after they won the gold..

Not such a high profile now.

Indeed.

It's almost a profile descriptor of: 'never to be seen again'.

Although if The Twiggy emerges with major financial support for the Force I sense BP will emerge from his bunker to declare:

'The ARU's brilliant Culling Program - which was only ever intended to provoke offers like The Twiggy's - has resulted in a superb new package that is the Epitome of the Uncull and we are delighted with this wonderful Unculling outcome for rugby in West Australia.'

'Culling Works, OK!'

 

[Quick Hands]

Indeed.

It's almost a profile descriptor of: 'never to be seen again'.

Although if The Twiggy emerges with major financial support for the Force I sense BP will emerge from his bunker to declare:

'The ARU's brilliant Culling Program - which was only ever intended to provoke offers like The Twiggy's - has resulted in a superb new package that is the Epitome of the Uncull and we are delighted with this wonderful Unculling outcome for rugby in West Australia.'

'Culling Works, OK!'

Twiggy's intervention has certainly changed things up a gear.