Waratahs 2016

[Quick Hands]

Was Mike Ala'alatoa actually not offered a contract for 2016 or did he choose to leave?

I can find no evidence anywhere that the Waratahs offered him a contract. Possibly they did, possibly they didn't. One assumes that there wasn't a meanigful offer there as the lad decided to go to Manawatu ITM Cup team in 2015 and was presumably not persued with any vigour by the Waratahs. Quite odd IMO since Kepu had already announced he was leaving.

The Crusaders seem fairly confident of his potential and I think it's commonly accepted that there's greater rugby depth in NZ than here - so they've gone for him over youngsters who've been through the Kiwi junior system.

The 24-year old spent two season with the Waratahs before signing with ITM Cup side Manawatu for the 2015 season, where he caught the attention of Crusaders forwards coach Dave Hewett.

“We’ve been keeping a close eye on the options at tighthead prop since Nepo Laulala’s decision to shift to the Chiefs, and Michael has been one who has really stood out,” Hewett said.

“He’s put in some impressive performances for the Turbos and, importantly, has really grown across the season. It’s obvious that he is working hard on his game and is ambitious and determined to succeed. That’s what really attracted us to him, he already has an impressive physical demeanour but he also has a great attitude.”
http://www.rugbynews.net.au/michael-Ala'alatoa-signs-one-year-deal-with-crusaders/

His explanation at least implies that he didn't feel that he had an opportunity at the Waratahs:
“I have moved to New Zealand this year in the hope of improving my game and gaining a Super Rugby contract, so to have achieved that with the BNZ Crusaders is a dream come true. The Crusaders have produced some of the best props in the world in recent years, so I know that I am going to the right place to learn and improve. I can’t wait to join the team and start preparing for the season ahead,” Ala'alatoa said.
http://westharbourrugby.com.au/uncategorized/bnz-crusaders-sign-prop-michael-Ala'alatoa/

 

[TOCC]

A lot of talk about the props but not much about the scrum coach


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[Quick Hands]

A lot of talk about the props but not much about the scrum coach


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Who I doubt has the ability to turn any of these guys into world class props.

 

[barbarian]

Well, he's just turned 24, which for props is nowhere near maturity.

The Crusaders seem to think he's got something going for him.

Will he be the world's best prop, time will tell, but I wouldn't be basing my evaluation on how he performed as a 21-23 year old that's for sure.

That doesn't make the Michael Ala'atoa release the right decision though.

It doesn't make it the wrong one either. The jury is still out.

Agree we shouldn't judge props until they mature, but that in itself sums up how hard it is to develop a Super roster. How long should you hold onto these guys as they 'mature'? How many years of off-field development can you afford?

Ultimately the Tahs had Mike A for three years and after that time they didn't see him as a game-ready prospect, it seems.

A guy like Ryan looked super promising 2-3 years ago, but it's fair to say his development has plateaued. Then Robertson comes from left field and looks great at 21. It's tough.

The Crusaders saw something in Mike A, and that's great. They also saw something in Ben Volavola, so I am not 100% convinced in their eye for talent either.
.

 

[qwerty51]

Mike A isn't that good but he's a hell of a lot better than Ta'avao. ITM Cup season proved that. That's the annoying part. We've got a Kiwi and they've got an Aussie - why!?

 

[Braveheart81]

I can find no evidence anywhere that the Waratahs offered him a contract. Possibly they did, possibly they didn't. One assumes that there wasn't a meanigful offer there as the lad decided to go to Manawatu ITM Cup team in 2015 and was presumably not persued with any vigour by the Waratahs. Quite odd IMO since Kepu had already announced he was leaving.

No one really knows. Perhaps he was offered the same base level Super Rugby contract again by the Waratahs and chose not to accept it so he could go and play the ITM Cup rather than the NRC and hope that provided him a better Super Rugby offer afterwards?

He was never going to be made a big offer by the Waratahs to stay in 2016 because at best he was fighting for a spot in the 23.

 

[Quick Hands]

No one really knows. Perhaps he was offered the same base level Super Rugby contract again by the Waratahs and chose not to accept it so he could go and play the ITM Cup rather than the NRC and hope that provided him a better Super Rugby offer afterwards?

He was never going to be made a big offer by the Waratahs to stay in 2016 because at best he was fighting for a spot in the 23.

Perhaps that is true - as you say we just don't know the exact circumstances.

 

[Braveheart81]

I have little doubt that Mike Ala'alatoa went looking for better opportunities (regardless of what was on the table from the Tahs) but it's hard to argue that his big breakthrough didn't come from how well he played in the 2015 ITM Cup for Manuwatu.

Can anyone honestly say he played that well in Shute Shield or in his limited opportunities for the Tahs prior to that?

 

[Quick Hands]

It doesn't make it the wrong one either. The jury is still out.

Agree we shouldn't judge props until they mature, but that in itself sums up how hard it is to develop a Super roster. How long should you hold onto these guys as they 'mature'? How many years of off-field development can you afford?

Ultimately the Tahs had Mike A for three years and after that time they didn't see him as a game-ready prospect, it seems.

A guy like Ryan looked super promising 2-3 years ago, but it's fair to say his development has plateaued. Then Robertson comes from left field and looks great at 21. It's tough.

The Crusaders saw something in Mike A, and that's great. They also saw something in Ben Volavola, so I am not 100% convinced in their eye for talent either.
.

No it doesn't make it wrong. There's worse prospects that they've given longer to develop - Tilse now in his 10th year.

The Waratahs coaches are entitled to make these judgement calls - but they also need to be held accountable.

That they decided to sign Ta'avao seems to suggest that they thought they needed more depth in the front row. On the basis of what we've seen, he's played a lot more super rugby than Ala'atoa and doesn't really seem up to it.

Perhaps this line from Ala'atoa ethe Crusaders have produced some of the best props in the world in recent years, so I know that I am going to the right place to learn and improve is a statement on the Blades coaching?

On Volavola, I thought he was worth more of an opportunity than he had at the Waratahs, but I can at least understand why he was let go. Although, I think I'd be signing him ahead of Zac Guildford.

 

[barbarian]

Perhaps this line from Ala'atoa ethe Crusaders have produced some of the best props in the world in recent years, so I know that I am going to the right place to learn and improve is a statement on the Blades coaching?

On Volavola, I thought he was worth more of an opportunity than he had at the Waratahs, but I can at least understand why he was let go. Although, I think I'd be signing him ahead of Zac Guildford.

I think that might be reading a little bit too much into it. That's the type of banal nothing quote you get in every new signing announcement.

But yes the Tahs need to be held accountable for Ta'avao, which was a questionable signing from the moment the pen hit the page.

And on Volavola, he was touted as the Crusaders starting 10, assuming the throne vacated by Dan Carter. This week he was dropped from the 23 after a string of poor efforts. I think the Tahs made the right call.
.

 

[Braveheart81]

On Volavola, I thought he was worth more of an opportunity than he had at the Waratahs, but I can at least understand why he was let go. Although, I think I'd be signing him ahead of Zac Guildford.

Again, he went looking for opportunity.

He was clearly not close to getting a starting spot at the Tahs behind Foley at 10 or Folau at 15. At best he was probably a chance for a regular bench spot in 2016.

He went to the Crusaders who lost all three of their fly half options from 2015 creating a massive opportunity.

He didn't win that battle and is stuck behind Mo'unga.

Guildford's signing was announced several months after Volavola signed with the Crusaders.

Not really comparing like for like.

 

[Quick Hands]

I think that might be reading a little bit too much into it. That's the type of banal nothing quote you get in every new signing announcement.

But yes the Tahs need to be held accountable for Ta'avao, which was a questionable signing from the moment the pen hit the page.

And on Volavola, he was touted as the Crusaders starting 10, assuming the throne vacated by Dan Carter. This week he was dropped from the 23 after a string of poor efforts. I think the Tahs made the right call.
.

They probably have made the right call with Volavola, he hasn't really come on at the top level. As I said, I could understand why he was released.

 

[Quick Hands]

Again, he went looking for opportunity.

He was clearly not close to getting a starting spot at the Tahs behind Foley at 10 or Folau at 15. At best he was probably a chance for a regular bench spot in 2016.

He went to the Crusaders who lost all three of their fly half options from 2015 creating a massive opportunity.

He didn't win that battle and is stuck behind Mo'unga.

Guildford's signing was announced several months after Volavola signed with the Crusaders.

Not really comparing like for like.

I wasn't making a comparison. I understand why Volavola was released as I have said.

Guildford was just a poor signing and I think we could have done better with local talent (not Volavola).

 

[Braveheart81]

I wasn't making a comparison. I understand why Volavola was released as I have said.

Guildford was just a poor signing and I think we could have done better with local talent (not Volavola).

They took a punt on a former All Black who needed a lifeline and subsequently got him for a base level salary. He played well in the first couple of games and then was poor in the next couple and is now injured. Who knows how he will go when he returns. Given how many young wingers they have signed up they needed someone with some experience. I'm not sure who else would have been a better option at such a cheap price.

Another point on Volavola is that once he chose to represent Fiji the Tahs would have had to sign him as their marquee player for 2016 onwards. Early in 2015 when he wasn't making the matchday 23, that would not have been a sound decision.

 

[Jagman]

Can anyone honestly say he played that well in Shute Shield or in his limited opportunities for the Tahs prior to that?

From memory he got dropped from the Eagles starting side in the 2014 NRC (temporarily perhaps). His scrummaging was not impressive.

 

[I like to watch]

.........Can anyone honestly say he played that well in Shute Shield or in his limited opportunities for the Tahs prior to that?

Hmm, if that's the measure,there's quite a few fortunate players with contracts.....

 

[Quick Hands]

They took a punt on a former All Black who needed a lifeline and subsequently got him for a base level salary. He played well in the first couple of games and then was poor in the next couple and is now injured. Who knows how he will go when he returns. Given how many young wingers they have signed up they needed someone with some experience. I'm not sure who else would have been a better option at such a cheap price.

Another point on Volavola is that once he chose to represent Fiji the Tahs would have had to sign him as their marquee player for 2016 onwards. Early in 2015 when he wasn't making the matchday 23, that would not have been a sound decision.

I've said three times on this page now that I understand why Volavola was released. The Waratahs have moved past him now and resigning him would make no sense.

On Guildford, let's agree to disagree on that. On top of his on-field performances, there's off-field issues which I don't intend to go into on these threads.

 

[fatprop]

I wasn't making a comparison. I understand why Volavola was released as I have said.

Guildford was just a poor signing and I think we could have done better with local talent (not Volavola).

Two different things, the Tahs lost three wallaby winger and needed experience in the mix, Guildford was and is a bet, he an All Blaack has a great work rate and gets involved. As to off field issues, so has had Beale, Palu etc. People grow up

 

[Groucho]

A lot of talk about the props but not much about the scrum coach


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I blame Robbie Deans.

 

[Lindommer]

All this talk about who's been signed and who wasn't, there's been no mention of the glaring weakness in the Tahs squad: we desperately need another rock lifting/shifting lock or two. More than any thing else the performances of Carter and Arnold (whom I thought outpointed Sam) got the Brumbies home last weekend. Mumm's a halfling in LGese and Skelton doesn't seem to have progressed from his great promise of 2014, he certainly hasn't got any fitter nor more physical. On this point, Kane, WTF did you sign with that basket case in Brisbane? Don't give me that stuff about yer missus, she's a Saffer! If her family have left Safferland they can move anywhere. Come home when you're better, all will be forgiven.