Waratahs 2014

[fatprop]

This is not a comment directed at young Roach but a much more general point.

How come a professional dart player with the obligatory minimum of six pints on board can consistently land the dart in an area no bigger than a twenty-cent-piece, while a professional rugby hooker, paid in the region of $200K to $400K principally to throw into the lineout, would struggle to hit the dart board itself more than 50% of the time?
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Better comparison is with a bi-athlete.

I think most can throw their darts "sober", it is getting their heart rates down and doing the job when they are struggling for air and their bodies feel like lead.

 

[Bessa]

This is not a comment directed at young Roach but a much more general point.

How come a professional dart player with the obligatory minimum of six pints on board can consistently land the dart in an area no bigger than a twenty-cent-piece, while a professional rugby hooker, paid in the region of $200K to $400K principally to throw into the lineout, would struggle to hit the dart board itself more than 50% of the time?
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A darts player doesnt have 6 blokes trying to stop the dart on the way to board. .... be interesting to watch though.

 

[Bruce Ross]

Better comparison is with a bi-athlete.

I think most can throw their darts "sober", it is getting their heart rates down and doing the job when they are struggling for air and their bodies feel like lead.

Perhaps an even better comparison is with goal kickers. The consistency of performance of the top kickers and their dedication to their craft is extraordinary.
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[Hugh Jarse]

^^^ Not sure how true this is but it sounds plausible.

In his heyday, it is reported that Jonny Wilko would practice his goal kicking for 60 minutes before and after all team training runs, giving credence to the old saying "the harder I practice, the luckier I get". Attributed variously to Gary Player and Samuel Goldwyn.

The more a #2 practices their lineout throws, the luckier they will get.

 

[MACCA]

Damien Fitzpatrick has apparently signed for Lyon in French Second Division. I can't understand why they have recruited a guy who has not played for 2 years

sudrugby - having watched Fitzy play against the Wicks, Lyon have made a good choice

 

[Morton]

With Phipps coming to the Tahs are both McKibbin and Lucas locked in for 2014?

 

[Bruce Ross]

If I remember rightly, LG, Tolu played quite a lot of Grade rugby even last year, mainly in Seconds. He is more advanced physically than most players his age.

An update on Silatolu Latu. This afternoon in the game against Easts he came on as replacement hooker just after Easts had scored a pushover try against Uni. Soon after Uni responded with a pushover try of their own, very largely due in my opinion, to having a powerful scrummaging hooker in the centre of their scrum.

That is where his potential lies, as a very powerfully scrummaging No. 2.
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[Hugh Jarse]

Do you think the "newer" scrum engagement rules, and possible focus on #9's feeding down the centre line will encourage the re-development of of the scrummaging #2?

For many years we have had #2's who have been more of an extra loose forward than a front row fatty.

 

[Bruce Ross]

Do you think the "newer" scrum engagement rules, and possible focus on #9's feeding down the centre line will encourage the re-development of of the scrummaging #2?

For many years we have had #2's who have been more of an extra loose forward than a front row fatty.

I think that is very likely to be the case, Huge. The power engage has transformed scrummaging from an opportunity for the exercise of great skill to something of a lottery. It is little wonder that referees find such difficulty in adjudicating scrums.
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[Badger]

With Phipps coming to the Tahs are both McKibbin and Lucas locked in for 2014?

Grayson Hart won't be around.......

Grayson Hart ‏@grayson_hart 55m
Got me a uk visa #oe

 

[en_force_er]

Perhaps an even better comparison is with goal kickers. The consistency of performance of the top kickers and their dedication to their craft is extraordinary.
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Touching on what I said before, throwing is effected by many things. Where the jumper jumps, if he gets his timing wrong, if you miss a verbal/non-verbal cue.

Maybe the opposition jumps well, leaving you little margin for error.

Whereas kicking is a closed skill. Once the mark is set, no opposition player can fuck it up. UNLESS they manage to charge it but that's not usually a factor.

 

[Train Without a Station]

There's no doubt that he's an abrasive player for a guy who weighs 96kgs and he has to be as most hookers are a bit beefier and abrasive.

He's a gym junkie and was even in his school days and has a Phil Waugh burning desire to succeed despite limitations - in Roach's case, his weight.

I know hookers who weigh as much as he does who have succeeded, but he will have to play big to overcome not being big, and to nail more throws than is average.

Sounds a lot like Adam Frier, Schalk Brits of Deon Fourie really. Haven't let size hold them back, even the SA players in a size dominated playing nation. Even Saia Fainga'a at the Reds would only be 100kg ringing wet and by the looks of his belly button dimple through his jersey, the skin folds probably are not in the single figures...

You would like to think that size would not be counted against the bloke unless it was an actual case of being overpowered in games.

 

[Lee Grant]

I'd equate him with Adam Freier - not the other two - different players.

But they're international quality players; I was talking about his possibilities as a Super Rugby player who is unproven.

My point was that he would have some point of difference to succeed in Super Rugby - to play bigger - as Freier did - and throw better than the average to make up for size. Hopefully he will.

He doesn't have the attacking attributes of Fourie, let alone Brits, to attain such a difference.
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[en_force_er]

I'd equate him with Adam Freier - not the other two - different players.

But they're international quality players; I was talking about his possibilities as a Super Rugby player who is unproven.

My point was that he would have some point of difference to succeed in Super Rugby - to play bigger - as Freier did - and throw better than the average to make up for size. Hopefully he will.

He doesn't have the attacking attributes of Fourie, let alone Brits, to attain such a difference.
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Well said. In Aus we train out stockier dynamic forwards to play 7. In SA they teach them to play 2.

Our 2s tend to be abrasive characters who are too small for prop or too unathletic for back row (though compared to lay people they are obviously very athletic).

 

[en_force_er]

To expand on my point, were Hooper and Mowen raised in SA I wouldn't be surprised to see the former playing hooker and the latter playing open side, such is the body types they look for.

However, SA are coming around to the Aus/NZ model of a true open sider of late, so what I'm saying is maybe becoming antiquated.

 

[Lee Grant]

I think that is very likely to be the case, Huge. The power engage has transformed scrummaging from an opportunity for the exercise of great skill to something of a lottery. It is little wonder that referees find such difficulty in adjudicating scrums.
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Exactly right. It has also disadvantaged dominant scrummaging because the luck of getting the start right in the power hit sprint often masks a lack of real scrummaging ability.

People new to the game (in the last ten years) may argue that the power hit is a skill that should be kept in the tradition of the game.

When we old-timers picked ourselves off the floor after laughing hard we would point out that it's a relatively new thing that was spawned by a few lurches a while back but was developed more in the professional era when players were paid to be in the gym and could deal with the physical consequences of such an activity.

They never found out a way to strengthen the discs in the neck though.

It became an arms race and in doing so the problems you mentioned arose.

The scrum tunnel gradually deteriorated forcing players to feed the ball behind the hookers' left foot, and the referees allowed it to happened because the IRB was silent even though they could see the death of the hooking contest.

I'd better stop - I'm winding myself up and have to go to the school matches today.
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[en_force_er]

Lee, us new rugby folk stick to the mantra that the scrum is now "a battle for quality ball, rather than a battle for possession",

 

[It is what it is]

Touching on what I said before, throwing is effected by many things. Where the jumper jumps, if he gets his timing wrong, if you miss a verbal/non-verbal cue.

Maybe the opposition jumps well, leaving you little margin for error.

Whereas kicking is a closed skill. Once the mark is set, no opposition player can fuck it up. UNLESS they manage to charge it but that's not usually a factor.

To simplify it-
In kicking, neither the ball or the posts are moving at the point of contact.
In throwing, both the ball and the catcher are moving at the point of release.

 

[Braveheart81]

You also need lots of other people to effectively practice lineouts.

Practicing throwing at a target by yourself will only get you a little bit of the way there.

Goal kicking can be practiced completely effectively by yourself.

 

[Train Without a Station]

To expand on my point, were Hooper and Mowen raised in SA I wouldn't be surprised to see the former playing hooker and the latter playing open side, such is the body types they look for.

However, SA are coming around to the Aus/NZ model of a true open sider of late, so what I'm saying is maybe becoming antiquated.

I cite Bismark Du Plesis, Cobus Grobbelaar, Heinrich Brussow as players who probable dispell that though Enforcer. In Aus if anything, Bismark would have been brought up to play 6 or 8 and the other 2 almost certainly 7.

I would say the example you noted is actually more applicable to NZ really. The number of former club players I have spoken to who were hookers in NZ and became openside flankers when they played club rugby in QLD is quite interesting. Almost all NZ opensides would potentially be 6s or 8s in Australia. I think Matt Todd is possibly the only real exception. Players like McCaw, Cane and Luke Braid, all sitting 185+cm would likely be developed as Jake Shatz type 6/8's. Most NZ opensides tends to be more rounded footballers as opposed to speclised fetchers with an angry streak like we generally have.