Waratahs 2013

[cyclopath]

Cyclo,

IMO he was playing better at the Tahs. He was certainly more dominant in the lineout taking the most steals of any player in the comp. two years running if memory serves. Even then he was developing as a leader having already led the youth sides. I still believe the injuries he suffered in the Shute Shield at the end of 2010 have had a long term impact on his running game. He is IMO the same player he always was, he is just appreciated more where he is and is a regular starter for it.

No matter what spin is put on it the Tahs failed to retain a far better player than the one they eventually kept. History is littered with instances where a short contract is desired, often for very good reasons and the club meets that wish to retain the services of said player. Lets not quibble about the technicalities of the contract, the long and short is that they did not retain the player and the short sightedness of that decision is now fully apparent. It is ironic that Mowen signed a three ?? year contract at the Brumbies. Perhaps he wanted the short contract to be able to leave if the Tahs continued on their path to nowhere under Hickey/Foley.

Surely there is something more you wish to discuss about that post then the little side bar that was the observation about the relative values of Mowen V Dennis.

I disagree about Mowen - he was a decent player at the Tahs, always a good lineout technician, no doubt. But I think he has really come on at the Brumbies in other ways.
Maybe he wanted the 1 year contract as he had doubts about the Tahs direction - how would that have worked out, given what has transpired since? The Tahs were pants last year. He'd be gone most likely. The appeal of playing under Jake White was maybe a big factor. He made his decision, and I think it was right for him. It's not spin, it is the way it was.
And no, since you put it so condescendingly, there isn't anything else I particularly wanted to discuss. Timani's and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)'s deficiencies and merits have been well discussed before. I don't really have anything to add.

 

[fatprop]

"Cheika singled out the side's apparent reluctance to do enough work off the ball as a persistent problem. It was identified after the Waratahs' win over Melbourne last week but reared its head again as the visitors struggled to punch holes in the Brumbies defence.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/w...ach-to-boil-20130309-2ftdn.html#ixzz2N8I7t7y1"

I thought it was interesting that Cheika highlighted this issue, it has been an issue for the Tahs for years and very apparent on Saturday night. The difference between the Tahs and the Brumbies was stark, they knew what they were doing, they realigned, they worked for each other.

The Tahs still just don't work for each other enough

 

[qwerty51]

Time for some accountability then. Kepu, TPN, Timani dropped to the bench. Ulugia (still no reason why Holmes played??) and Ryan to start. Wouldn't mind seeing McCutcheon and Hooper start and then Lopeti on for McCutcheon.

 

[Gnostic]

And no, since you put it so condescendingly, there isn't anything else I particularly wanted to discuss. Timani's and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)'s deficiencies and merits have been well discussed before. I don't really have anything to add.

Condescendingly?? How so? It was a genuine question for comment about the body and intent of the post. All the comment (on Mowen) was on a very small part of a whole. Even the observations regarding Dennis, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and Timani are sidebars to the intent and direction, they were just the most obvious examples.

The post by Fatprop, re:- the interview with Chieka exposes more of the coach's thought regarding his squad.

 

[Gnostic]

Time for some accountability then. Kepu, TPN, Timani dropped to the bench. Ulugia (still no reason why Holmes played??) and Ryan to start. Wouldn't mind seeing McCutcheon and Hooper start and then Lopeti on for McCutcheon.

Definitely need to start in the pigs, but the work off the ball in attack means a lot about the backs too.

But in the Pigs a very telling moment was the maul try by the Brumbies only 1 of the tight five was really egaged defending that maul and two were nowhere near it. Straight off the lineout that is a grave failing. Kepu, Timani, Holmes Robinson. If this was the first time it had happened fair enough.

 

[cyclopath]

Condescendingly?? How so? It was a genuine question for comment about the body and intent of the post. All the comment (on Mowen) was on a very small part of a whole. Even the observations regarding Dennis, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and Timani are sidebars to the intent and direction, they were just the most obvious examples.

The post by Fatprop, re:- the interview with Chieka exposes more of the coach's thought regarding his squad.

Your style was not inviting counterpoint, it was to trivialise my point that argued against your take on the situation with Mowen, which you were using as an example of the Tahs failures. I believe the circumstances of his departure were not as you implied. You dismiss it as spin. I had no issue with any other points, so left them be. I suppose that makes me an apologist?


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[Paradox]

I think AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) has just lost his explosive edge over the last 3 seasons. His last very good game was against France for the Ws. The following year he played for the Brumbies and had lost his punch (the big step and fend just wasn't coming off). His power in contact is nowhere near that of of 4 years ago. Remember when he started and powered through 3-4 All Blacks to get a try?

He's still a solid player but not a guy that'll bust open the defense like he use to be able to.

 

[Caputo]

Whilst watching the replay of the Brumbies v Tahs, I found it interesting that Phil Kearns was comparing Tahs to Brumbies rebuild. Moaning that Chieka had no say in the players he inherited. That it may take to next year to see the real team emerge.
Jake White was not initially impressed with his Lock stocks and wanted an old bold Bok from the UK, 12 months on Carter and Fardy are doing the job for him. Only real change is Pocock and Oosthuizen and 5 EPS.
NSW still has the cattle don't waste this year. He has used 3 of his 4 EPS when does Holloway start.

 

[qwerty51]

Jake's had a much bigger say in his squad than Cheika did due to the number of players that left. There are so many Tahs uncontracted next year it will be only then can a Brumbies style cleanout occur.

 

[kiap]

Only Mogg Speight and Volovola made more metres than hooper and he was the game high tackler also making life difficult for Nick White at the breakdown.

The stats from vary a bit from different sources. Gotta take them with a grain of salt. Hooper did get through a load of tackles but he isn't carving the same running metres at the Tahs as he was last year. Mogg, Speight, Coleman, To'omua, Lealiifano, Rathbone, Tomane, Volovola, Mitchell, Foley, Timani, and Folau all made more metres.*

* Your mileage may vary...

 

[Ash]

Vary a bit? Those stats vary by a lot, lot more than a bit. Metres run seems to be a rubbish stat to analyse most of the time due to the variations from different providers.

 

[kiap]

Vary a bit? Those stats vary by a lot, lot more than a bit. Metres run seems to be a rubbish stat to analyse most of the time due to the variations from different providers.

Correct. The number of runs are roughly alike (well, "a bit") but they only give a guide and aren't gospel. Often enough there are even discrepancies in lineout stats. Who to believe?

 

[qwerty51]

Neither, all the rugby stats are bullshit. You gotta do your own unfortunately

 

[kiap]

Neither, all the rugby stats are bullshit. You gotta do your own unfortunately

Possibly so. But don't just immediately throw away what you see (as fallible as our own eyes are) for these player stats.

 

[Groucho]

Neither, all the rugby stats are bullshit. You gotta do your own unfortunately

How can your own be better?

 

[kiap]

How can your own be better?

Well, there wouldn't be too many quicker ways to kill any interest in the game than to pore over a video totaling up rugby stats. It takes the people who are paid to do it many hours, even with the software. Has to be much, much worse doing it unpaid. Better to just take these "stats" as they are, and use them as a rough guide.

But if so inclined - and I'm not - it could be feasible to pull out a subset of these stats oneself. Lineout outcomes, say, or even running stats.

Aside from errors in tallying (no yardage marks, wrong player attribution, etc), a major source of discrepancy would be the guidelines used. What is the minimum distance of a meaningful recordable "run"? I mean there are guys there with 5 runs totaling 0m which is probably fair enough. Hit ups of 0.8m are hardly "runs" - although no doubt others will think otherwise. What about when a runner is driven back and metres are lost? ..... and so on and so forth.

 

[p.Tah]

The players all wear GPS devices don't they? If they wanted accurate running stats they could run the GPS data along side the video and record exactly when the player had the ball and how far he ran.

 

[emuarse]

The players all wear GPS devices don't they? If they wanted accurate running stats they could run the GPS data along side the video and record exactly when the player had the ball and how far he ran.

GPS devices record all running. Not just when carrying the ball

 

[fatprop]

It isn't necessary to look at GPS stats to know that units aren't doing enough to become available to be a threat in attack or defence - or that they know where they are supposed to be - or that they are showing enough urgency/'need'

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[p.Tah]

Emu, yes they'd have to integrated the video of the game with the data generated by the GPS trackers and note down when a player has a ball. It would be more accurate than estimating the distance based on line markings.
I believe they currently download the GPS data after the game so If they want it in real time the trackers would need wireless data transmission. I'd that expect the would make the devices too intrusive.

A lot of effort to say who carried the ball further. I guess it comes down to how accurate the coaches want the info to be.