Waratahs 2012

[ACT Crusader]

Geez Lee, there must be genuine concern if you're worried about next season only halfway through this one.

I think one of the things somewhat plaguing OZ rugby at the minute is the uncertainty around some of the coaching positions. I think the timing of these decisions has alot to do with the coaching situation. Sure people come and go but the AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and Falcon moves seem from the outside at least related to who's at (or not at) the helm.

But the Tahs will still have Barnes (he'll come good like Leon MacDonald), Carter, the wonder boy Horne, Mitchell and Turner. Like almost all sides depth will be tested when injuries occur but that's nothing new.

If they're looking for midfield cover they should make a dib for Tyrone Smith from the Brumbies

 

[Jethro Tah]

kurtley going does mean Tom Carter keeps his starting spot, with every death comes rebirth as they say.

Chariots at 15 ?? Now that would bring the fans !!

So if Kurtley is going to the Rebels, who would have to go to make room for him in their squad, i.e. which back can we convince to come north of the border? Vuna, Gerrard, Betham, Mitchell & Rooney are all NSWelshmen aren't they.

 

[James Buchanan]

So if Kurtley is going to the Rebels, who would have to go to make room for him in their squad, i.e. which back can we convince to come north of the border? Vuna, Gerrard, Betham, Mitchell & Rooney are all NSWelshmen aren't they.

I'm sure there'll be one or two we'll let you have.

 

[DPK]

Gerrard or Vuna, thanks. Can we set up a anti-Rooney force field?

 

[T.Rugby]

as much as it sucks that KB (Kurtley Beale) is going, i think it will be a fantastic opportunity to bring in some new backs from the shute shield/academies especially when you still have the likes of barnes, mitchell, turner, carter and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) around. With KB (Kurtley Beale) and so many wallabies in one backline...there are hardly ever oppourtunities for you to give game time to junior players unless it is forced through injury.

 

[James Buchanan]

Yeah, I expect we'll want to keep those two. We have some other Backs we may not be needing soon though. Huxley of any interest?

 

[Bowside]

Can you just poach some mungos instead of poaching from other francises.

Josh Dugan looks the goods.

 

[James Buchanan]

The Rebels were always going to poach from the other franchises come 2012. After every World Cup, you see a bunch of players resettle.

There's nothing stopping the other franchises from poaching league players. Barnes, Elsom (and Davies?) are good examples of QLD and NSW 'doing it right'

 

[Bowside]

The Rebels were always going to poach from the other franchises come 2012. After every World Cup, you see a bunch of players resettle.

There's nothing stopping the other franchises from poaching league players. Barnes, Elsom (and Davies?) are good examples of QLD and NSW 'doing it right'

I was actually referring to the tahs.

But now that I think of it, I would rather see the rebels experiment with league players (and in the long run develop their own players) rather than poach established players like Beale. Especially if the player is from nsw, and has loads of resources poured into his development by the NSWRU since he was a schoolboy.

 

[James Buchanan]

I was actually referring to the tahs.

But now that I think of it, I would rather see the rebels experiment with league players (and in the long run develop their own players) rather than poach established players like Beale. Especially if the player is from nsw, and has loads of resources poured into his development by the NSWRU since he was a schoolboy.

Fair enough. We have to some extent with Saffy, Vuna and Du Plessis, although they all had Rugby backgrounds. At the same time, this is the world of professional rugby. Barnes had heaps of development put into him by QRU, Elsom by NSWRU, Giteau by ACT etc... it happens. People are still a little too parochial about this stuff.

 

[Hawko]

I was actually referring to the tahs.

But now that I think of it, I would rather see the rebels experiment with league players (and in the long run develop their own players) rather than poach established players like Beale. Especially if the player is from nsw, and has loads of resources poured into his development by the NSWRU since he was a schoolboy.

Herein lies the quandary. NSW spends a lot of effort, dollars and energy in developing a player who turns out to be World 15 material. That development goes down the tube to another franchise who are allowed to make significant third party deals that put NSW at a disadvantage in the bargaining. But we see it as a question of personal freedom that Kurtley is to become a free agent at the end of his contract.

Its an example of two conflicting fairnesses, only one of which can be satisfied unless there is an underlying transfer system to reward the developing region. Because Kurtley is so valuable, this is an extreme example; but in a free transfer laissez-faire system this happens all the time. We could argue that a laissez-faire system without checks and balances caused the GFC. If we are prepared to let that happen then surely we have to let Kurtley happen too. Its a disaster of much smaller proportions, even to a Tah fan.

I guess we just have to suck it up and get on with life.

 

[sevenpointdropgoal]

I'm probably wrong, and I might be being alarmist, but I'm going to put it out there anyway - I don't think we can include Barnes in the mix for the medium term future. The persistent head injuries he seems to be suffering from are more dangerous than virtually any other injury a player can suffer (short of a neck or back injury). In later life they are related to increased prevalence of a number of extremely serious conditions, and if I were him I'd be looking very carefully at my future. I don't think he'll retire straight off, but I suspect there is a fair chance of him really only being available for 2/3 - 3/4 of future seasons, and possible having to retire very early.

Elton Flatley gave it up prematurely, just before his 29th birthday if my quick count is correct, and there is a fair chance Barnes might be headed that way (much earlier if things go badly). Granted he's still young, but a few more serious knocks and I find it hard to see him justifying the danger.

 

[Lee Grant]

Don't forget that Greyson Heart is hanging around.

I didn't forget Hart though he's not listed in my Tahs 2011 Season Guide as being in their stable. That is neither here nor there though: the Junior Tahs have a cast of thousands in their games and Hart was one such used. He started against Fiji and came off the bench against Samoa and threw some ropey passes in both and thus didn't take my eye as an up and comer.

It's a small sample though, and he'd have to be good to have played Super rugby before.

He was supposed to be playing for Southern Districts but I didn't see his name in the programme on the weekend in any grade. Maybe he is hurt but maybe he has moved on. Anybody know for sure?

Not to the point but there is a poignant story about why he moved from NZ.

Geez Lee, there must be genuine concern if you're worried about next season only halfway through this one.

Hey, it's a forum and we speak about all kinds of crap; at least I do. I was more worried about losing Beale's versatility and the depth of the half-backs: 9 and 10.

Compared to other teams in the past the Tahs have been lucky not to lose a lot of players we would have liked to have kept; so the absence of Beale next year, and the knock on effect of it, is a valid topic now.

I guess we just have to suck it up and get on with life.

Exactly.

 

[TOCC]

Herein lies the quandary. NSW spends a lot of effort, dollars and energy in developing a player who turns out to be World 15 material. That development goes down the tube to another franchise who are allowed to make significant third party deals that put NSW at a disadvantage in the bargaining. But we see it as a question of personal freedom that Kurtley is to become a free agent at the end of his contract.

Its an example of two conflicting fairnesses, only one of which can be satisfied unless there is an underlying transfer system to reward the developing region. Because Kurtley is so valuable, this is an extreme example; but in a free transfer laissez-faire system this happens all the time. We could argue that a laissez-faire system without checks and balances caused the GFC. If we are prepared to let that happen then surely we have to let Kurtley happen too. Its a disaster of much smaller proportions, even to a Tah fan.

I guess we just have to suck it up and get on with life.

didnt hear to many complaints when NSW signed Berrick Barnes or Drew Mitchell

but i agree, something needs to be done to compensate for the development of players

 

[matty_k]

didnt hear to many complaints when NSW signed Berrick Barnes or Drew Mitchell

I thought Berrick left the Reds on his own accord. He wasn't happy with what was going on there at the time. Correct me if I am wrong.

Also didn't Drew leave the Force after his second party deals fell through?

 

[Lee Grant]

Macqueen's contention that Phipps is just about locked in at the Rebels next year may not be gospel.

According to Greg Growden and Jamie Pandaram in the SMH:

The Rebels could .... lose their halfback Nick Phipps to the Waratahs next season. Phipps has indicated he is eager to return to Sydney due to studies and family, and with Waratahs halfback Luke Burgess expected to announce his departure to French club Toulouse this week, a starting spot is available at NSW next season.

 

[fatprop]

The Tahs could decide to keep Halangahu to back up Barnes, because the next flyhalf in line at the minute is 20 y.o. Ben Seymour of Manly with 19 y.o. Rohan Saifoloi in the wings.

I think this will be the key decision in Tahs development for the next few years.

Do they back Seymour or Saifoloi now, give them a full contract and start to blood one of them next year or go hunting in the stocks of other squads.

Hangers may provide cover for another year but he ain't even a medium term option.

 

[TOCC]

I thought Berrick left the Reds on his own accord. He wasn't happy with what was going on there at the time. Correct me if I am wrong.

Also didn't Drew leave the Force after his second party deals fell through?

As opposed to KB (Kurtley Beale) who who left against someone elses accord??

All three players saw better opportunity at another province, albeit national selection chances, player development or money.

 

[James Buchanan]

As opposed to KB (Kurtley Beale) who who left against someone elses accord??

All three players saw better opportunity at another province, albeit national selection chances, player development or money.

I think he meant Barnes 'left the Reds' first. Then once he had left the Reds, he started looking at which province he wanted to play for.

Myself, I can't remember if that was the case and it may just be arguing semantics. But, for the 'transfer payment' arguments that everyone is discussing, it would make a difference.

 

[wamberal]

The Waratahs desperately need some attractive attacking backline players for next season to boost their crowd numbers. I wonder how much a player like Lote was really worth, in terms of bums on seats - several thousand a match for sure.


Winning is better than losing. But winning ugly does not put much bread on the table these days.