Waratahs 2012

[eastman]

Now I love bashing Sydney Uni as much as the next bloke and I agree that they are over-representated in the squad including those who don't deserve their spot (eg Dean Mumm, Jeremy Tilse, Paddy Ryan etc) but to blame them for the key decision makers preference to kick isn't that fair. Pretorious and Barnes (not really a uni product) are not from the uni stable but both have a willingness to kick the ball away. The fault seems to lie with the style of player that Waratahs look for with their recruitment strategies

 

[fatprop]

Now I love bashing Sydney Uni as much as the next bloke and I agree that they are over-representated in the squad including those who don't deserve their spot (eg Dean Mumm, Jeremy Tilse, Paddy Ryan etc) but to blame them for the key decision makers preference to kick isn't that fair. Pretorious and Barnes (not really a uni product) are not from the uni stable but both have a willingness to kick the ball away. The fault seems to lie with the style of player that Waratahs look for with their recruitment strategies

The problem isn't kicking, it was the chase and intent.

As for Uni being over-represented, bullocks, they are the most successful and professional Sydney club by a long, long way. It is any real surprise to see their players given the opportunity. They fill most S15 sides in Aus.

 

[qwerty51]

Gotta laugh at the Uni comment, there's plenty of them throughout the Brumbies, Force and Rebels

 

[eastman]

I disagree with the chase and intent statement- on turnover ball the first instinct of these players should be to run and pass- not kick the ball away. A stronger kick chasing game will just mean counter attacking opportunities for the opposition will be less and the odd turnover forced, it will not result in the waratahs scoring more tries

 

[Cutter]

What do you expect when half the squad comes from Sydney Uni and the key decision makers are from Sydney Uni. Sydney Uni have played a terriorty orientated game plan based on kicking and physical dominance for the last 6 years and have had obvious success with it. And while this may have worked in club land where you are up against a mixture of amateurs and professionals it has clearly not worked at the next level for the tahs. Time for a change I think and time to start playing with the ball.

It's at least double that. Big forward runners, a good kicking 10 and wingers who catch pneumonia on cold days.

 

[Cutter]

Oh, and I'm agreeing only that that is the Uni game plan, not that it is the source of the Waratah's malaise.

 

[RedsHappy]

I disagree with the chase and intent statement- on turnover ball the first instinct of these players should be to run and pass- not kick the ball away. A stronger kick chasing game will just mean counter attacking opportunities for the opposition will be less and the odd turnover forced, it will not result in the waratahs scoring more tries

The other key aspect of this mini-debate re kicking is that, overall, the actual standard of Aus S15 kicking from hand on the move is very ordinary. How often do we see supposedly attacking kicks land perfectly into the hands of the oppo 15 or wingers enabling a more than adequate, rapid fire ball-in-hand counter attack that sends the original kicking team back 10-30 metres with zero possession and heavily on the defensive? This when there were large tracts of territory to kick to when the ball would could have landed in open space forcing the oppo's back 3 to run laterally and/or rearwards and and maybe have to deal with an awkward bounce as well. (Poor chasing is yet another matter.) And too, the general standard of catching under attacking kicks is not great either IMO. I have said elsewhere that poorly thought through and executed open field kicking that yields nothing more than effective oppo counter attack was becoming the bubonic plague of Australian S15 rugby.

Compare this to top grade AFL. The ability of virtually every team member to make long kicks under pressure on the run and place them one after another within a metre of target is, comparatively, exceptional. Same with catching under pressure.

It's absolutely no co-incidence that Henry/AB's recruited Mick Byrne directly from the AFL as their kicking and catching coach. They saw that modern top level AFL was the epicentre of kicking from hand and pressure catching skill. That's where they went, and it's totally typical of their deep professionalism and hunger for hundreds of detailed improvements across AB players. This far more in-depth professionalism around the right specialist coaching is but one of the reasons we beat them so rarely and that the Bled never sits under an Australian sun. We hired a part-time SA-based place kicking coach that worked mostly via video link with an 8-9 hr time zone difference.

 

[fatprop]

If you are building a game around Barnes and/or Hangers (or Harris for that matter) and you are going to play for field position and build pressure. That is how they play.

If you have Cooper being hidden at 15 then you will play counter attack.

 

[Knuckles]

Now I love bashing Sydney Uni as much as the next bloke and I agree that they are over-representated in the squad including those who don't deserve their spot (eg Dean Mumm, Jeremy Tilse, Paddy Ryan etc) but to blame them for the key decision makers preference to kick isn't that fair. Pretorious and Barnes (not really a uni product) are not from the uni stable but both have a willingness to kick the ball away. The fault seems to lie with the style of player that Waratahs look for with their recruitment strategies

As do I.....and from previous posts that is obvious.

However, I think the criticism of Dean Mumm is a little harsh. Yes, he is out of form and a contract should probably be found for him chasing the European cash cow, he has served NSW well over a number of years. Not the flashiest of players, not the most skillful, but he certainly put in. Jeremy Tilse on the other hand.............it was recognised by Ewen McKenzie all those years ago that his scrummaging was ordinary, they sent him to England for a few months to learn the trade (a few months was certainly not long enough IMO) but we have seen no apparent improvement. How long can a guy continue to not threaten for a starting XV spot and remain contracted for? Paddy Ryan? A work in progress here I think. I say, send him to England for a year then bring him back and see how he goes. He is still just a kid. In the meantime, use the $ saved from farming out these 3 to get Dan Palmer back and spend some serious time developing a uniform scrum technique school delivered by the Tahs to all Shute Shield Clubs. It works in New Zealand. Mike Cron asked (and got) a national scrum program where he selected the coaches to deliver his program to ALL the provinces. That same philosophy can and should be applied to NSWRU.

A similar program could be rolled out for attack structure as well. The issue has long been the inability of the Tahs to get the ball wide. They need to look at why? And when they do that, look at how far back it goes as well. It should be done independently as well. Otherwise they'll just have their own coaching staff marking their own program. A+ would be the answer!

IMO, and I know the Uni apologists will completely disagree and throw his stats at me, but the problem for a long time has been Tom Carter. Yes, he has not been playing lately, but it is still the inherent problem. He may be good for team morale, have great stats in tackles made, line breaks, whatever. But luckily for him, they dont have a stat for how many times he tucks it under his arm and just trucks it up when there's an overlap or space outside him. He adds some value in his own way, no question, but when over the years, he has had Mat Rogers, Lote Tuqiri, Wendell Sailor, Drew Mitchell, Lachie Turner, Kurtley Beale et al out side him, and the criticisms of them has been that they dont get involved often enough, the question must be asked WHY? And throw Ryan Cross into that mix too.........He is just as unable as Carter to move the ball at speed to the outside man. Why they signed him is beyond me. Another problem of the Tahs has been the complete non existence of a succession plan for Phil Waugh. A great servant of the game, no-one would deny that, but in latter years, he just did not have the pace to support the wide game. Hence the requirement for Carter and Cross. They needed to identify a logical successor, stick with him, develop him and ensure that he possessed the pace to support a wider game. From all reports, Waugh had a HUGE say in what flankers were recruited into their ranks, MASSIVE problem there that I dont need to go into.

They have some serious issues that are not going to go away this year. Foles needs to put a broom through the place (including his support staff and recruitment manager) to change the culture of conservative footy. They have the most talented player in Australia amongst their ranks in Barnes. Build a squad around him.

I also think they should have a midfield of 10- Foley, 12 - Barnes, 13 -AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) but the issue is with the injuries they have this year there is no real 15 to do the job properly with that set up. Perhaps though, a backline for 2013 could be 9- Pretorious, 10- foley, 11- turner, 12- barnes, 13- AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), 14- horne/kingston 15 - Mitchell.

Still need a 7 who will get wide though

 

[Bruce Ross]

The other key aspect of this mini-debate re kicking is that, overall, the actual standard of Aus S15 kicking from hand on the move is very ordinary. How often do we see supposedly attacking kicks land perfectly into the hands of the oppo 15 or wingers enabling a more than adequate, rapid fire ball-in-hand counter attack that sends the original kicking team back 10-30 metres with zero possession and heavily on the defensive? This when there were large tracts of territory to kick to when the ball would could have landed in open space forcing the oppo's back 3 to run laterally rearwards and and maybe have to deal with an awkward bounce as well. (Poor chasing is yet another matter.) ... I have said elsewhere that poorly thought through and executed open field kicking that yields nothing more than effective oppo counter attack was becoming the bubonic plague of Australian S15 rugby.

Another aspect of our abysmally low standard kicking, RH, is that so much of it is done under pressure. Effective strategic kicking should be done with good ball not bad ball. If you want the ball to "land in open space forcing the oppo's back 3 to run laterally rearwards" or find the sideline 10 metres out from the opposition goal line it needs to be a deliberate unpressured kick not a Hail Mary boot downfield in order to avoid assault on one's person.

We hired a part-time SA-based place kicking coach that worked mostly via video link with an 8-9 hr time zone difference.

Probably by chance, RH, you may have hit on the solution to the Waratahs' problem with all the empty seats at Allianz Stadium. Why not hire Bram van Straaten as a marketing consultant? Any man who could convince our national coach that he could coach goal kicking via Skype could sell a few thousand seats in an afternoon. The trouble is he might sell them all to Robbie.

 

[Joe Mac]

I like it Knuckles, all valid points.

 

[rugbyvet]

Gotta laugh at the Uni comment, there's plenty of them throughout the Brumbies, Force and Rebels

I might have to check but im pretty sure that those 3 teams have not been dominating Super Rugby the last few years which only validates my point about them being over represented at Super Rugby level.
And yes they have dominated the club scene but when you have a organisation that runs near a professional level while others operate at a amateur level so what do you expect.
Anyway I have digressed, thats not the the topic here and I don't want to be seen as a Uni basher just trying to think of why the the tahs continually come up short.

 

[Braveheart81]

Surely that is an argument that other clubs need to lift their game rather than the Tahs choosing to be less reliant on Sydney Uni.

P.S. I am not a Uni fan.

 

[RedsHappy]

Another aspect of our abysmally low standard kicking, RH, is that so much of it is done under pressure. Effective strategic kicking should be done with good ball not bad ball. If you want the ball to "land in open space forcing the oppo's back 3 to run laterally and/or rearwards" or find the sideline 10 metres out from the opposition goal line it needs to be a deliberate unpressured kick not a Hail Mary boot downfield in order to avoid assault on one's person.
......

Super point Bruce. I recall an AFL pro once telling me that their kicking coaches worked very hard on training players (all of whom must kick well) when to recognise the emotive signals inside that a kick was going to made without the right forethought and/or just under raw pressure and thus when the risk of a bad or misplaced kick was very high. Psychological training, as much as the kicking skill itself.

Mils M of the ABs has talked of how their mental skills/sports psychologist worked with the ABs on the technique of blocking the mind to extraneous data in catching scenarios and using colour imagery to line up and execute a catch. Not saying I understand it, but it impressed upon me the attention to detail - and open-mindedness to new techniques - in all they do.

 

[Bruce Ross]

I have to admit, RH, that that observation isn't really mine but came from conversations I have had with Chris Malone who is back at Sydney Uni as their High Performance Coach. Chris of course was a renowned exponent of strategic kicking.

 

[Ole Two Blue]

Surely that is an argument that other clubs need to lift their game rather than the Tahs choosing to be less reliant on Sydney Uni.

P.S. I am not a Uni fan.

Give us federally funded facilities and federally funded staff and we'll be up there in 3 years too!

 

[rugbysmartarse]

The Tahs are slowly becoming the best advertisement for rugby league, afl, soccer, hockey, baseball..........

They are killing the code. And if they seriously expect us to believe that the crowd was 15,000 last saturday then they are even more deluded than I thought!

They have serious attack issues. Clearly, their first preference is to kick................unacceptable for the advocates of 'running rugby'. But hey this is what happens when you contract blokes based on what school they went to.

On the way out I overheard a 20yo bloke saying to his mates "thats why league is better to watch - if you cant do anything in 6 tackles the other guys get a turn". I almost stopped them to plead they dont judge the game of union based on Saturday nights display.

in terms of numbers, the members area was pretty full so I would say 15,000 is pretty accurate. piss poor, but accurate

 

[Badger]

It's absolutely no co-incidence that Henry/AB's recruited Mick Byrne directly from the AFL as their kicking and catching coach. They saw that modern top level AFL was the epicentre of kicking from hand and pressure catching skill. That's where they went, and it's totally typical of their deep professionalism and hunger for hundreds of detailed improvements across AB players.

RH, the Tahs could certainly learn a few things about kicking and gathering the ball from a kick from the AFL. The Sydney Swans HQ is next door to Tahs HQ so you would think it worthwhile for someone on the Tahs coaching panel to pop over and at least have a chat to John Longmire and his coaching team at the Swans. If the Swans have no problems with opening weekly training sessions to the fans, I reckon there wouldn't be an issue sharing some ideas with the Tahs.

 

[eastman]

I think the question needs to be asked if AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) was an intelligent recruit? I am assuming he would be on a fairly substantial contract for a player who cannot lock down a position. Was he recruited as an outside even though we have Rob Horne or as a fullback despite his limitations with distribution? If he was recruited as a wing then surely our money would have been better spent on some younger, faster and cheaper.

 

[Braveheart81]

Given the options, I think AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) was a good recruit. He can play many positions.

He was recruited to play fullback. It is only the excellent form and quick advancement of Bernard Foley that has forced his way into the side and meant that AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) has moved to the wing.

I'd argue that at Wallaby level, wing is AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)'s best position.