Waratah Cup & Shield 2012

[Hugh Jarse]

That is an OK a reasonable interpretation of an "import" in many respects. What about extending that to selective Sports High Schools?

Are the kids there not on the equivalent of a scholarship/bursary at a full fee paying school, only in this instance the generous benefactor is the State Taxpayers.

This would leave the likes of Randwick Boys High, Epping Boys High etc up against teams from the private sector where only full fee paying students are eligible to play.

Very unworkable administratively for a competition, and one that is inappropriate for the supposed showpiece of schoolboy rugby that is supposed to cut across all association boundaries.

No easy answer. If there was, it would have been implemented by now.

 

[angrydog]

That is an OK a reasonable interpretation of an "import" in many respects. What about extending that to selective Sports High Schools?

Are the kids there not on the equivalent of a scholarship/bursary at a full fee paying school, only in this instance the generous benefactor is the State Taxpayers.

This would leave the likes of Randwick Boys High, Epping Boys High etc up against teams from the private sector where only full fee paying students are eligible to play.

Very unworkable administratively for a competition, and one that is inappropriate for the supposed showpiece of schoolboy rugby that is supposed to cut across all association boundaries.

No easy answer. If there was, it would have been implemented by now.

Not sure I am 100% sure of what you are saying. Sports High's are no different to those private schools which 'import' players. As you point out the benefactor is the taxpayer as opposed to some other source at as is the case at private schools, to concentrate togethor a group of kids (talented ones at that) in a team which otherwise would not be playing with each other. They then go on and dominate all other state schools, e.g Epping and Randwick and many private schools before meeting a private school or other Sports high in the final of competitions such as the Waratah Shield to decide who has best been able to attract gifted young men to a school they would otherwise not attend.

Once upon a time in a far away land when schools just got enrolments at their schools based on reputation and good standards alone many state schools were able to compete with the private schools to a certain degree. Private schools have generally been able to beat the state schools consistently not because they had better footballers or some other superiority over them, the main reason behind their success lay in certain factors such as higher participation rates amongst others. History shows that in the first 17 years of the Waratah Shield, 16 of the winners were state high schools!

I am not living in a dream world and hope that one day all schools, state or private will go back to playing with the 'cattle they've got'. With professionalism this world has passed and the age of young men being 'imported' is here and happening. The key is how the system can be managed effectively and fairly. The current system has already seen the GPS begin to fall away with SBH and Grammar either dead or dying. St Edmunds in Canberra as stated earlier virtually destroyed the ACT comp and schools like Grammar, Daramalan and Trinity near gave up. This has only turned around in the last two years where the focus on rugby has changed and Eddies are finally playing on an even field to everyone else. The result of this? Well, less Aust. schools reps for eddies but a far more enjoyable and competitive local comp where Grammar and Marist are vying (and leading)with eddies for the top of the table. In the case of St Augustines, they are clearly becoming a toxic and disliked member of the ISA comp through their sheer dominance and in time their participation in the Waratah shield will also be resented by the other schools just like Eddies were in the 2000's leading to the expulsion of all ACT schools from the comp entirely.

This is a bit of a rant I know, but this is a topic which really annoys me and what annoys me more is that people like Papahatzis at Auggies couldnt give a crap about the consequences so long as their trophy cabinet continues to bulge. It's not right and it's not in the spirit of rugby. The only way I can see this situation being more transparent and 'fair' is if schools who 'import' players are honest and those schools are then pitted against one another. This will unfortunately probably create a bigger divide between schools who do and those who dont but at least then there will be no more secrecy or deception in this practice. Schools like SBH can then avoid 148 - 0 drubbings and seek opposition more to their own standard thus creating a better experience for the players and the game itself.

This will never happen though because most GPS people have their heads somewhere dark and smelly and the idea of schools such as Auggies, Oakhill or Waverley entering their domain is both insulting and traumatic for them to contemplate. Thats right NSW rugby is virtually run by GPS ex students and players isnt it....that explains alot.

 

[Brian Westlake]

Ad,
This isn't a rant as you put it. I really think you have NAILED IT!!!! As long as School Trophy cabinets are to be filled, you will have then the "bending" of the laws to suit. Whilst morally bereft, the "benders" are still within the law. 148 to Nil drubbings serve no purpose than to bulid ego's that are usually pumped beyond the realms of most sane people. It is only self serving and narcissistic for these persons (not wanting to target specifics) that they might get a better contract from RL, Get a better pay packet vs their Union buddies etc( Teachers Union). But Ad, It is not only GPS, but the whole system is in dire straits. Look at our State pinnacle with the Tah's. Quick fix anyone?

 

[Newbie]

Profound statements from both 'AngryDog' and 'Brian Westlake'.

My hat's off to you both!

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Not sure I am 100% sure of what you are saying. Sports High's are no different to those private schools which 'import' players. As you point out the benefactor is the taxpayer as opposed to some other source at as is the case at private schools, ....snip.

Me neither when i re read my previous post literally. Removal of a couple of words in the lead sentence may assist everyones understanding, but as I have already been quoted, I've decided to leave it as it stands for all to see what a grammatical goose I was.

What I was trying to say, is you have probably accurately described what an "import" is.

I disagree in some respects because some "imports" are actually well behaved in class and not quite the education rebel that you paint. There are some thoroughly pleasant scholarship gentlemen at many schools. Many are as you have described so I'll let it stand.

By bringing in the Selective Sports High Schools into the "imports" category, I was also trying say that they are no different from many of the Private schools who poach, scholarship and bursary their way to glory.

I then try to say the likes of Randwick Boys and Shore who do not import and poach are then at a disadvantage in terms of a level playing field. Who would value a competition, in our ideal world, where many of the Rock star players were excluded 'cause they have been imported.

Trying to arrange a game where Newington played Grammer where the former was not allowed to field any "imports" would be impossible. There would be almost no reason for Newington to agree to such folly.

Maybe NZ has it right where there is a bit of an openness over there - advertising for scholarships etc (I posted an example of this last year on some thread here). Some Queensland schools also seem to be quite open about their importing, although I think I have read somewhere where there has been a bit of a backlash recently.

In short, while the various associations (including Sydney Juniors) remain mostly in their closed stovepipes, little will be gained. There is too much to be lost in any fair, open and transparent system.

I like the thrust of your rant in response. It sums up much of my rose coloured nostalgic view
of a much gentler time in our history.

 

[angrydog]

Ad,
This isn't a rant as you put it. I really think you have NAILED IT!!!! As long as School Trophy cabinets are to be filled, you will have then the "bending" of the laws to suit. Whilst morally bereft, the "benders" are still within the law. 148 to Nil drubbings serve no purpose than to bulid ego's that are usually pumped beyond the realms of most sane people. It is only self serving and narcissistic for these persons (not wanting to target specifics) that they might get a better contract from RL, Get a better pay packet vs their Union buddies etc( Teachers Union). But Ad, It is not only GPS, but the whole system is in dire straits. Look at our State pinnacle with the Tah's. Quick fix anyone?

Brian,

you used the word 'ego' in your post. This is rather poignant as I would suggest that a certain group of people from NSW, ACT and QLD schools rugby over the past 20 years have hidden very conveniently behind words such as 'development', 'opportunity' and 'advancement' to promote the so called benefits or virtues of offering young teens scholarships, bursary's etc when the real reason for the use and development of such schemes has merely been for the ego boost it gives the members of that group when they win another title or churn out another Aussie schools rep. Reality is that these people have done none of the hard work in developing the kid and most likely do little else for the kids development post school. I would be very curious to see how many kids over the past 10 - 15 years who have been 'imports' to any school have gone on to any professional level of rugby and then legitimately carved out a living/career which sustains them. During the period of time when the kid themselves is at school, invariably their own ego is inflated as would be the case with most impressionable teens but when reality kicks back in and they no longer get to wear their schools blazer and it's time to pay some bills but they haven't cut the mustard to get a pro contract and are slugging it out in club rugby with the rest of us mere mortals where is the real 'benefit', 'opportunity' or 'advancement' that was attached to their names by these schools who sort so eagerly to import them.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I love your work Angry Dog, Newbie and Brian W but.... these good words (and I'm guilty ) are slightly off topic and are p'raps worthy of being rewarded with the Administrators copying them across to the Scholarship thread, to keep this thread open for Waratah Shield results and less philosophical issues.

 

[angrydog]

That is an OK a reasonable interpretation of an "import" in many respects. What about extending that to selective Sports High Schools?

Are the kids there not on the equivalent of a scholarship/bursary at a full fee paying school, only in this instance the generous benefactor is the State Taxpayers.

This would leave the likes of Randwick Boys High, Epping Boys High etc up against teams from the private sector where only full fee paying students are eligible to play.

Very unworkable administratively for a competition, and one that is inappropriate for the supposed showpiece of schoolboy rugby that is supposed to cut across all association boundaries.

No easy answer. If there was, it would have been implemented by now.

HJ,

I think we are generally in some form of agreeance? I say lets just open the whole situation up with some kind of transparency so that schools may basically look at their opponents and be able to say 'we dont 'import' and schools A,B and C do. We will not lead our lambs out to be slaughtered by A,B,C and instead we will only play fixtures against X,Y,Z who have the same policy as us.' This may pose an admin problem for some competitions but they will soon correct themselves when schools A,B, and C only have four games a year within their own comps and MUST look outside the comp to find a game. Who is to blame for this situation - A,B, and C. Too bad so sad for them and happy days for the other schools who opt to seek opposition which will not give them a hiding 148 - 0. These games benefit no one - not one player out of 30 gets anything out of these kinds of results. Eventually competitions will be forced to be structured or re-alligned so that schools who openly 'import' are matched with those who do the same or those whose participation levels are high enough that they can also compete e.g Shore. Schools who dont will also then re-align into comps of schools with the same policy and they will be much more even. The sacrifice will be to historically based organisation like the GPS but at least teams like SBH and Grammar can again start to promote rugby and hopefully attract kids back to the game.

 

[angrydog]

I love your work Angry Dog, Newbie and Brian W but.. these good words (and I'm guilty ) are slightly off topic and are p'raps worthy of being rewarded with the Administrators copying them across to the Scholarship thread, to keep this thread open for Waratah Shield results and less philosophical issues.

Sorry mate, I cant agree. I think this topic is very relevant to the thread.

 

[Gristlechewer]

Gee. I liked it Hugh. Philosophy. Please don't delete these though, as I feel they portray a lot of genuine feelings out in the Rugby community. Cheers to angrydog Mr westlake and Newbie

 

[angrydog]

Sorry guys, one last comment before I go. The question was asked, "Does anyone know if any team has won the Waratah Shield without imports!!! I remember Scots were in trouble years ago when they imported a side to win. I am not saying I am against imports but is it possible for the average school to win???"

Doesnt this show just how relevant this discussion is to this thread. Would SBH really have entered the Waratah this year if they were told it was likely they would get pumped by 148 points? Isnt that why they no longer play in the GPS 1st XV comp, to avoid this kind of one sided ego pumping humiliation?

 

[Brian Westlake]

I love your work Angry Dog, Newbie and Brian W but.. these good words (and I'm guilty ) are slightly off topic and are p'raps worthy of being rewarded with the Administrators copying them across to the Scholarship thread, to keep this thread open for Waratah Shield results and less philosophical issues.

I am not an agreeable soul, but I concur with Angrydog. I find it totally relevent in "At What Cost?" for the young boys and girls that play Rugby Union. Sorry HJ

 

[Hugh Jarse]

On second thoughts, probs right for this to stay in this thread BUT these ponderings could ALSO be of use to the overall Scholarship Thread as well, cause I think there are some great ideas being raised here. Never intended to suggest that the Admins delete these ideas, just to add them to another thread.

If I get time I may summarise some of the ideas and cross post to the scholarship thread (with appropriate recognition to the original authors of course).

 

[Leicester Tiger]

Today Hills beat Endeavour 20 to 10 in horrible conditions. I know these games have to be played within a certain time frame but the conditions today lead to a game of who had the least amount of drop ball and errors.

Hills were not great at the break down today perhaps due to backs running away from their team mates! Endeavour No. 7, Amosa, had a ball turning over from the isolated Hills boys at the breakdown. It was a tight affair with the score suggesting a more comfortable victory than it was. Both teams had a yellow card for repeated penalties in the ruck and there could have been more for silly shoulders etc.

The try to seal the win came from a charged down box kick.

Hills saw good efforts from Mafi and Taylor who were everywhere and jumped well, and some good runs from the Hills 12 and 11. Endeavours best was Amosa but their forwards all played a part.

 

[Runner]

Hey Empire,

totally agree mate. The ACT comp needs to be developed. I think Marist should have showed some solidarity with the old enemy and not played in the Waratah either. We all know the real final used to be between Marist and Eddies anyway. Generaly Eddies would come away with the points and then go to Sydney and blow some Sydney team off the park. If this didnt happen then it was Marist who did the same. The end result was removal from the comp for all ACT teams. Now they invite us all back? Marist should have joined Eddies and given the NSWJRU the proverbial finger to make sure their own comp was developed and strengthened.

Good to see Grammar strong this year. It is only good for the comp to see Marist and Eddies getting some strong opposition from other teams/schools. I would love to see Darra pick up it's game and then with a strong club or two the comp all of a sudden becomes very interesting.

Sorry but I would have thought that playing teams in other competitions' who may be stronger at the moment, was a way to develop teams.

 

[Runner]

The rants and points raised here in theses threads are all very interesting. However, some seem to border on defamining some school(s) and individual(s).

 

[whatever]

While I have not taken in all the ideas raised in these posts (and SOOII is starting soon). Why not simply bar selective sport schools & GPS schools (outside of High & Grammar), certain ISA & CSA schools plus some of the Catholic Sport Schools (Patrician Blacktown etc, if they wish to nominate) from the Waratah Shield.

Then create a new knockout comp (call it whatever) involving all the elite sport schools (State, GPS, ISA, CAS & tyke ones).

Level playing field created, plus the "ordinary" schools could nominate for the new elite knouckout comp, if they believe they had a strong year of students coming through but the identified elite schools cant go backwards to the time honoured traditional Waratah Shield.

Problem solved.

 

[I like to watch]

Doesnt this show just how relevant this discussion is to this thread. Would SBH really have entered the Waratah this year if they were told it was likely they would get pumped by 148 points? Isnt that why they no longer play in the GPS 1st XV comp, to avoid this kind of one sided ego pumping humiliation?

WTF are SBH doing entering in an open state wide comp,when they acknowledge they are not up to Schools Ist standard.

 

[Newbie]

WTF are SBH doing entering in an open state wide comp,when they acknowledge they are not up to Schools Ist standard.

C'mon ILTW you should know the old cliche, "all the brains in the world with no common sense" ... ... ... lmao

 

[Pedro]

Stannies 21 defeat Farrer 15