Wallaby Watch 2014

[Train Without a Station]

Too risky? So we go with what we know, that is a player who is still not playing to his ability and come up with the same result or we take risks to beat those heathen from across the dutch and have something different on the bench. If Horwill was on fire he would be starting, make no mistake. He obviously isn't so Skelton it should be.

Players aren't picked on how much of their potential they are realising. How James compares to his own past performances are irrelevant. How he compares to Carter's, Simmon's and Skelton's performances is what's relevant.

Skelton can offer more as a physic runner, whilst less in the set piece. He's also been relatively quiet since his test debut. These are factors to consider.

 

[qwerty51]

Horwill will be there instead of Skelton. Skelton will see game time throughout the RC but I don't see Link taking two green locks into the 23. To risky for the quality of opposition we are up against and Link will look to use Horwill's experience on the bench.

He didn't start them against the French for nothing. Fair to say both exceeded expectations and Link would've been very pleased with how both handled Test rugby. I won't get into another debate about how good Horwill's performances have been because it'll go in circles but I'll put it on record he will find himself out of the 23 in either Bledisloes. Very rarely do we get beaten via the set piece against NZ, it's the physicality stakes we lose in. We shall see.

 

[BDA]

yeh im still uncertain who link will go with as the bench lock. Both Skelton and Horwill have their advantages. I'd like to see how Skelton goes in the finals series before i make up my own mind. I'm probably leaning slightly towards Skelton at this point in time, as he offers something different but Horwill certainly has his appeal and link certainly wont drop him out of the 23 easily. Let's not forget that it was only 12 months ago that Horwill was our inspirational leader, and many punters thought his possible suspension from the third lions test would be the difference between us winning and losing the series.

 

[Ruggo]

Too risky? So we go with what we know, that is a player who is still not playing to his ability and come up with the same result or we take risks to beat those heathen from across the dutch and have something different on the bench. If Horwill was on fire he would be starting, make no mistake. He obviously isn't so Skelton it should be.

That's a cute statement but you completely ignore the cold hard fact of Horwill's experience and the logic of playing the more experienced player in the 23. It is about the team balance and not individual merit like some blindly perceive. If we had more than one experienced option, we could have that debate. Why do we know Horwill isn't in his best form? Simple answer is we know what he is capable of in the test arena but that would bring us back to the cold hard fact that he has the experience.

Skelton and Carter both have masses of promise and nobody disputes that. To develop these players into the test arena should be done with consideration to the team dynamic. Carter is the more rounded of the two and he should start beside Simmons. Ask yourself what happens if we lose Simmons to injury and the consequences of that. Who is going to steady the ship? It would be a rudderless operation.

It is common sense.

 

[Ruggo]

He didn't start them against the French for nothing. Fair to say both exceeded expectations and Link would've been very pleased with how both handled Test rugby. I won't get into another debate about how good Horwill's performances have been because it'll go in circles but I'll put it on record he will find himself out of the 23 in either Bledisloes. Very rarely do we get beaten via the set piece against NZ, it's the physicality stakes we lose in. We shall see.

I would disagree. The NZ set piece has gone up a level with Sam Whitelock.

Also notice how Link didn't play both of them in the same 23. Carter's injury was a factor no doubt but Link always had Horwill there in the 23 as an insurance policy. Like yourself I'm not getting dragged into a debate about his form but his experience is the key factor.

 

[fatprop]

I have major concerns about playing Skelton in the championship against the Boks or ABs, I just don't think he is ready, we just haven't worked out an efficient, effective role for him at lineout time.

The only thing I can think of is as a runner in the backs, but we have Palu for that and then McCalman

 

[Pfitzy]

That's a cute statement but you completely ignore the cold hard fact of Horwill's experience and the logic of playing the more experienced player in the 23.

Also a cute statement. But it ignores the cold, hard fact that Horwill's form this year is a step above awful. I know you don't want to get into a debate about it, but if Link is going to stick to his guns, then facts must be faced.

If Simmons goes down its questionable if we're going to be as effective at lineout time. But "rudderless"? That's a more apt description of the Reds this year under Horwill's leadership. I put a some of that blame on Woody Graham but if Hooper is going to cop shit for having a play fight with Beau Robinson, then Horwill's reputation can drown under a torrent of crap for his comments about refereeing.

No doubt Link has a contingency plan for the lineout if Simmons isn't available. It then depends whether that plan involves Horwill taking over the lineout, or whether someone else can do it.

I tend to lean towards Horwill in the first game against the ABs, however that actually might depend on Skelton's form the next two weeks, should the Tahs live that long

 

[Train Without a Station]

Pfitzy that's completely untrue. Horwill hasn't been "a step above awful". He's been adequate and serviceable and getting through a good load of work to begin with, and has been steadily improving since. Was good in the June tests and has had some strong performances since.

 

[Scrubber2050]

In the first game against the AB's

It will be Simmons and Carter run on and Skelton on the pine.

Contrary to TWAS's opinion and some man-love from others, Horwill will not be in the 23.

 

[Train Without a Station]

I'm not saying the bloke definitely will. I'm just saying it's not cut and dry and nobody in the squad is written off. Explain to me, if Skelton plays around the ground against the AB's like he did against the Reds, and the set piece suffers because of it, what benefit have we gained by picking him?

I'm not saying that's a reason to write him off, but it surely is one of the many considerations . Hence why there's no clear cut and dry answer.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Also it needs to be remembered, for all the hype about Skelton's physicality, there's a reason why Cheika is using him as a bench lock behind a 194cm 3 test springbok loose forward.

Not saying he's not quality and physical. Just saying he's young and will take time to develop into a player to match the very best.

 

[Scrubber2050]

Agree TWAS, nothing is certain and Skelton was shut down by the Reds. As I have said before I reckon the AB's and saffas will target him bigtime and his effectiveness will be diminished

This site exists and flourishes because of our own and others opinions.

 

[Pfitzy]

Pfitzy that's completely untrue. Horwill hasn't been "a step above awful".

Compared to what he is capable of producing - and should be producing in a team with very average form - it is.

 

[Train Without a Station]

What he is capable of is irrelevant to any of these discussions.

As noted in the reds thread he has been dominant in the line out, part of an above average scrum and serviceable around the park with a high work rate compared to all, including Brodie Retallick.

Since the article on wallabies locks his work around the park has improved to above average.

Not claiming he is the best lock, but clearly on all parts of a locks criteria, he is in the top 5. And that includes Kane Douglas.

 

[Braveheart81]

I feel like Horwill is being discounted for his poor form last year and an average start to the season.

His form from June onwards should be what counts because that is more likely what we will get from him in August.

It's kind of like saying we need to make a space in the starting XV for Christian Leali'ifano because he's the best goal kicker in the country or that Beale should play fullback because he was nominated for world player of the year when playing that position.

Those things are all true but they're not current.

 

[Train Without a Station]

What I find interesting is, what he is capable of was always a reason to pick Beale despite current form, yet it's a reason to not pick Horwill.

 

[Braveheart81]

Good thing Beale's current form is excellent so people can stop complaining about him being picked.

 

[fatprop]

Agree TWAS, nothing is certain and Skelton was shut down by the Reds. As I have said before I reckon the AB's and saffas will target him bigtime and his effectiveness will be diminished

This site exists and flourishes because of our own and others opinions.

I don't think he was shut down in open play, he was still sucking in multiple defenders and screwing up your mauling which is his two key attacking skills

But his line out work is not up to scratch, so you need two effective backrowers to compensate.

Whilst the Wobs backrow has Palu at 8, we don't have the second jumping option. Now if McCalman or Higgers is starting the calculations are very different

 

[Brumby Runner]

I don't think he was shut down in open play, he was still sucking in multiple defenders and screwing up your mauling which is his two key attacking skills

But his line out work is not up to scratch, so you need two effective backrowers to compensate.

Whilst the Wobs backrow has Palu at 8, we don't have the second jumping option. Now if McCalman or Higgers is starting the calculations are very different

I agree. With Cliff at 8 and not being a straight out jumper, Skelton can't be in the starting lineup. If he comes on when Palu is rested then he can play the same hit up role in the backline that Palu generally does. Ben McCalman does not provide the hit up, get over the advantage line effort of either Palu or Skelton, but would be another lineout jumper to compensate for Will's deficiency here. The pity is that Skelton can't yet play 8 because then we could have both Will and Kev on the bench. Also a pity that Higgers is so much out of form. He could otherwise offer both jumper and hit up roles off the bench.

All things considered, I think Horwill off the bench is the way to go initially, with Will considered later in the tournament, or perhaps against Argentina.

 

[daz]

No Mitch. Again.

Gutted. Again.

I sense a theme developing.