I'm not even interested in trying to rate one above the other. I'm interested how anyone can provide any measurable data by which Foley is "far" worse. Because I really don't believe they can.
Wallaby 31 players for 2015 RWC
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Agree totally.
Joe Blow
John Hipwell (52)
Thats what To'omua brings and he will be the first or second back picked in every Cheika test side, challenged only by Folau.
The backline will be built around To'omua.
Brumby Runner
Jason Little (69)
It's really not quite that simple. Taken to its logical conclusion, no player would ever be dropped from the Wallabies, and would have to retire to be replaced. Form is very critical in deciding who should be picked and who should miss out. All things being equal in respect of recent form, a proven test player will be favoured over an untested player. Incumbancy then becomes a consideration as well. Should the incumbent in reasonable Super form be persisted with over a proven high performing test player who is returning to form following an absence?
Ruggo
Mark Ella (57)
We debate Cooper vs Foley but we are forgetting that the man now in charge of the Wallaby backs is the bloke who wouldn't swap To'omua from 10 for Lilo. I don't think it is the right move but I suspect that To'omua is a big smokey for that Wallaby 10 jersey.
T
TOCC
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This is true, but Larkham doesn't have Foley, Cooper and Beale to pick from at Brumbies level..
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Tomikin
David Codey (61)
I've said it before and I will say it again, the Brumbies Line speed in defence is all based off To'omua. That's why his at 10.. and 10 - 12 for the Brumbies swap in attack.
I wouldn't mind giving Lilo the rains at 10, it's where he plays his best rugby but I do see the reasoning behind leaving To'omua at 10.
I wouldn't mind giving Lilo the rains at 10, it's where he plays his best rugby but I do see the reasoning behind leaving To'omua at 10.
Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
Is Naivalu eligible for the Wallabies?
Horwill must be getting close to having a line through his name. Surely down the pecking order from Jones, Carter, Skelton, Timani and evenArnold. Shit even Simmons has played better than Big Kev.
Something else to consider. If Folau is moved to 13, which may be a real possibility, it is not beyond possibility that Foley will be at 15 and Cooper or Beale at 10.
Horwill must be getting close to having a line through his name. Surely down the pecking order from Jones, Carter, Skelton, Timani and evenArnold. Shit even Simmons has played better than Big Kev.
Something else to consider. If Folau is moved to 13, which may be a real possibility, it is not beyond possibility that Foley will be at 15 and Cooper or Beale at 10.
Brumby Runner
Jason Little (69)
So we've got Phipps at 9, Beale at 10, Folau at 13 and Foley at 15. Who're the Tahs players to fill 11, 12 and 14? Surely you haven't discarded AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and Horne yet?
Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
I discarded AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) years ago. Beale... WTF? I rather he be in Europe but we have to deal with the realities.
What I posted is something that is lurking at the back of my mind and I thought people should consider as a possibility from the Wallabies coaches. It is certainly a possibility and covers all the skill sets required.
Sorry to offend your provincialism BR but White is second behind Phipps you know.
Brumby Runner
Jason Little (69)
And Folau is second or worse behind Kuridrani at 13.
Marcelo
Ken Catchpole (46)
I'm not sure. How long has he been living in Australia?
Cheika must talk with him, he could be important after WC. That guy should not be chosen by Fiji, Taqele either. We must ensure the greatest possible number of Pacific islanders for Wobs
Brumbieman
Dick Tooth (41)
On their most recent game, Kuridrani would be polishing Folau's boots, he was atrocious against the Tahs, and IMO the difference between the two sides.
He's proven class at test level though, and would be foolish to write him off after one shit game.
Especially, as he looks like being a long term prospect, and Folau is IMO a month to month prospect RE his commitment to rugby.
13 is such a vital position that requires consistency and specialisation, that moving Folau to 13 with the intention of playing him there internationally, is just hysteria.
Highlander35
Steve Williams (59)
Naivalu moved in October of '13, so we're looking at November internationals of '16.
Probably a good thing tbh. His good stuff is potentially at test level already, but he has a few things he needs to sort out before he should get an opportunity. With 2 NRCs and 1 .5 Soup Seasons there's an opportunity there.
And I don't think convincing him to stay will be a problem. There was an article in the Fiji Times not long after he signed last year, that suggested he really really wants that canary jersey.
Probably a good thing tbh. His good stuff is potentially at test level already, but he has a few things he needs to sort out before he should get an opportunity. With 2 NRCs and 1 .5 Soup Seasons there's an opportunity there.
And I don't think convincing him to stay will be a problem. There was an article in the Fiji Times not long after he signed last year, that suggested he really really wants that canary jersey.
Far more relevant that whether Folau could play 13 (he probably could given some time from what we've seen so far) is who realistically backs him up at 15. There are plenty of players lurking around who have played or are playing 15, but I wouldn't say anyone is really a standout if Folau wasn't there. I suspect we'll end up with a "utility" player being the 15 if Folau is injured. And a big, big step down in class.
I can't see Folau being started at 13, simply because any coach would probably want both him and Kuridrani on the field at the same time, and currently (and also looking at RWC timeframe) I can't see either being moved.
I have no doubt that theoretically, Folau could be a good 13, and Kuridrani could probably be a good 12 if anyone wanted to explore that possibility. Down the track. That's a flight of fancy for later.
As Brumbieman says quite rightly, we need consistency for now, and experimentation can be done later if it needs to be. Kuridrani should rightly be well in front in any discussion - he has plenty of classy displays on the board. So too Folau at 15.
I can't see Folau being started at 13, simply because any coach would probably want both him and Kuridrani on the field at the same time, and currently (and also looking at RWC timeframe) I can't see either being moved.
I have no doubt that theoretically, Folau could be a good 13, and Kuridrani could probably be a good 12 if anyone wanted to explore that possibility. Down the track. That's a flight of fancy for later.
As Brumbieman says quite rightly, we need consistency for now, and experimentation can be done later if it needs to be. Kuridrani should rightly be well in front in any discussion - he has plenty of classy displays on the board. So too Folau at 15.
Geez, I like the way he runs. There is not one iota of deceleration going into contact, and he runs good straight lines but knows when to cut back in. He's great to watch.
Brumby Runner
Jason Little (69)
Hey Gnostic, take the time to have a look at my posts this year re Skelton. Nothing but praise for the big man since he has been packing and pushing in the scrums effectively. His play in general has also continued to improve and even last year when he wasn't jumping in the lineouts I acknowledged his mere presence at No 2 was a disruptive influence on opposition lineouts. Just about the complete package now and imo will be the first lock chosen for the Wallabies. There is more competition for the other lock spot.
So, perhaps not so provincial as some wanting practically the whole Tahs team in gold, especially one Izzy Folau in 13 when he has been the standout 15 in Aus rugby for a couple of years as has Kuridrani been at 13.
And coming back to the No 9s, Nic White has a much more rounded game than Nick Phipps who is more one or two dimensional. Up until the Tahs/Brumbies game Nic had been the standout No 9 in the Aus conference this year. Nick Phipps in that game showed he is getting back to last year's form but he hadn't been playing all that good earlier this year. One way or the other, on present form one will start and the other will be backup in the RC and RWC.
It really looks like players from the Tahs and the Brumbies will dominate national selections this year with one or two deserving a spot in the squad from each of the Rebels, Force and Reds (if they're lucky). Probably not surprising then that you will favour your team members and I will favour mine when the competition is about equal.
Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
The reactions of some posters to a possible concept is hilarious.
I'm not suggesting what should happen, just what could be a possibility. It will all depend on how Chieka wants to play the game and the skill sets required to execute that plan. The provincial location of individuals are irrelevant when considering the skills sets that they bring, except in the case of determining the case between equally balanced individuals and considering established combinations.
The whole reason for posting the concept is a consideration of how well Folau played coming into 13 (from 15) against Kurindrani, and the comments of coaches before and after that game. When you consider history and the selection of McCalman to play 7 in the 2011RWC against Ireland it is not a far fetched idea when you consider the balance of the skill sets available. The McCalman selection was not particularly bad given the skill sets available to Deans (in the flawed & limited squad he selected) what the great failure was, was not adjusting the game plan to account for the loss of the specialist 7 skill set (that and the idiotic idea of playing a conservative kicking game plan and not having a long kicker in the entire squad).
Having a fixed idea of picking the perceived best player in each position with no reference to the game plan to be played may not create a cohesive whole and leave key skill sets uncovered. Selection should be considered from the point of view of the game plan that the coaches want to play. That may change from game to game, but I doubt that.
I'm not suggesting what should happen, just what could be a possibility. It will all depend on how Chieka wants to play the game and the skill sets required to execute that plan. The provincial location of individuals are irrelevant when considering the skills sets that they bring, except in the case of determining the case between equally balanced individuals and considering established combinations.
The whole reason for posting the concept is a consideration of how well Folau played coming into 13 (from 15) against Kurindrani, and the comments of coaches before and after that game. When you consider history and the selection of McCalman to play 7 in the 2011RWC against Ireland it is not a far fetched idea when you consider the balance of the skill sets available. The McCalman selection was not particularly bad given the skill sets available to Deans (in the flawed & limited squad he selected) what the great failure was, was not adjusting the game plan to account for the loss of the specialist 7 skill set (that and the idiotic idea of playing a conservative kicking game plan and not having a long kicker in the entire squad).
Having a fixed idea of picking the perceived best player in each position with no reference to the game plan to be played may not create a cohesive whole and leave key skill sets uncovered. Selection should be considered from the point of view of the game plan that the coaches want to play. That may change from game to game, but I doubt that.
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