Wallabies without O'Connor just aint the same

[proton]

its hard to say in the modern game you would expect most players to have touched the ball at least 10 times in a half. the defensive patterns are much the same as league where players are playing a zone D otherwise there will be a loss in structure. Fingers played the coaches plan. I think he came off to try alternate combos even if he made one mistake. its just hard to find the perfect player...

 

[Proud Pig]

The problem is with both Ant and McCabe in the centres they are both primarily defensive players who offer little in attack. It makes the side very hard to break down but also limits the effectiveness of QC (Quade Cooper) as it means to get any flair he needs to get it out to either KB (Kurtley Beale) or the wingers as there are no real options in the centres. JOC (James O'Connor) just gives another attacking option.

 

[Athilnaur]

To play devils advocate there is a genuine argument that 2 defensive centres who run straight lines offer us more attack (in our team) because it forces the opposition to maintain a straight defense, creating angled space for Ioane/Beale/JOC (James O'Connor).

Ant had a flat game in a low tackle count game, but the one tackle he did make (I only recall one?) was an important one. He did go looking only to end up clashing with Quade. My sense was Quade actually ran himself into a corner and Ant paid the price.

Another observation I'd make is that Quade hasn't actually tried to put McCabe or Ant into space, even when they make themselves available, whereas he will AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Beale etc. Not saying that should be a stock in trade tactic, but it adds another dimension to our attack and done with timing those guys, particularly McCabe, are capable of making solid inroads on an angle to set play for Beale/Ioane/JOC (James O'Connor). This is a more traditional centre play and one we should be using a little bit more, particularly given the likes of Elsom, Samo, and Higgers on hand to add in.

All that said AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) would have to be the preferred player atm and Horne is breathing down their necks. He's likely to get a shot I'd think come minnows.

 

[vidiot]

AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) - no, sorry, Fingers - dropped a similar pass cold in the first twenty minutes.

Just a self-correction. While the clarkoid called it AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) dropping virtually the same pass at 4:24, it was Fingers. That'll teach me to keep one eye on the kids.

Two handling errors in what - three carries? Not great, for all that it was wet. Certainly would put Beale and Cooper off passing to you again.

 

[waratahjesus]

i need to watch the game again, but the problems in attack are quite clear to me, the fact that Beale and co are getting the ball running at an angle to the sideline and often getting pushed into touch have been there for the last few games, as soon as we go straight we find gaps, yet there seems to be a lack of trust or ability for the centres to find those gaps, its always digby or JOC (James O'Connor) coming in.

 

[darkhorse]

The problem is with both Ant and McCabe in the centres they are both primarily defensive players who offer little in attack. It makes the side very hard to break down but also limits the effectiveness of QC (Quade Cooper) as it means to get any flair he needs to get it out to either KB (Kurtley Beale) or the wingers as there are no real options in the centres. JOC (James O'Connor) just gives another attacking option.

i need to watch the game again, but the problems in attack are quite clear to me, the fact that Beale and co are getting the ball running at an angle to the sideline and often getting pushed into touch have been there for the last few games, as soon as we go straight we find gaps, yet there seems to be a lack of trust or ability for the centres to find those gaps, its always digby or JOC (James O'Connor) coming in.

Agree completely about the centres. They seem to facilitate a sliding defence as the risk of them cutting back in and beating the cover defence or breaking the line is minimal. I wouldn't be so concerned about them not breaking the line if they made the advantage line a bit more often and more dynamically. That is why I am leaning towards AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) at outside - there really isn't that much difference b/w him and Fainga'a in defence anyway, perhaps Fainga'a is more likely to make a try saving tackle.

 

[TSR]

Two weeks ago these same centres were instrumental in beating the All Blacks. O'Conner & Mitchell are both very good players and it's great to actually have some options - but if one of them has a sub par game this week are we going to call for them to be dropped for the quarters? Over the years I would argue that showing faith in players has paid much higher dividends than chopping and changing.

The other point I would make is that it has been repeated ad nausem that defence wins world cups. I don't necessarily think that means you pick your best defensive combination above all other considerations - but I do wonder how many people who are calling for Ant's head were outspoken critics of the WBs poor defence in the first Bledisloe.

I wouldn't begrudge either Mitchell or O'Connor their opportunity should it come - they are both fine players. But personally I hope Deans gives Faianga the chance to redeem himself. If he is successful it could make a big difference at the business end.

 

[waratahjesus]

in terms of showing faith in players, Ant has been there for 2 games.

faith would mean, barnes at 12 and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) at 13, this was our set combo last year and only adjusted due to injury this year.

 

[Train Without a Station]

I think we are going to struggle to find a 13 who has anything but a quiet game outside McCabe. Also it would be a bit harsh to say Ant didn't go looking for it considering he was pushing into mauls trying to do the work.

 

[Cassius88]

Another observation I'd make is that Quade hasn't actually tried to put McCabe or Ant into space, even when they make themselves available, whereas he will AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Beale etc.

I couldn't agree more. McCabe is generally taking hit ups that a loose forward takes off a 5/8. Having said that, the idea is get over the advantage line with non-showy hit-ups, to free up space for the likes of Beale, and I think McCabe is doing that consistently.

 

[Slim 293]

in terms of showing faith in players, Ant has been there for 2 games.

faith would mean, barnes at 12 and AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) at 13, this was our set combo last year and only adjusted due to injury this year.

I think a lot of people are wrongly assuming that McCabe is there because Barnes was injured.

Deans probably would've played McCabe regardless.

Deans has intentionally gone with McCabe for what he offers at inside centre with his strong defence, and ability to bash up the ball and he's filling that role excellently.

It looks like Barnes is primarily there for flyhalf cover, and to also cover inside centre if necessary.

Deans could've rushed back Barnes like he has with certain other players, but he hasn't and I think his place will be on the bench.

 

[light]

A fully fit and firing Barnes would have been selected over McCabe any day of the week, Barnes has proven himself to be a big game player and has a passing game that is a potent attacking weapon. For his size he also has great technique in defence in that he tackles well and can defend the 10 channel when Quade drops deep. Additionally, Barnes provides another kicking option, his short kicking game is unmatched in Australia and he has the ability to completely change the direction of attack. Added to this, he is also a reasonable goal kicker, something that would be very valuable if JOC (James O'Connor) wasn't in the XV due to Ioane regaining his position

McCabe, whilst being a solid defender and very efficient ball carrier, lacks these assets that Barnes possesses. Sure, when on form he is part of a lethal midfield combination, but there is no doubt in my mind that if Deans had the choice between Barnes and McCabe over a month ago, and both were fit, Barnes would easily be Deans first option and we would not be having this discussion right now.

 

[Athilnaur]

Barnes is a great player no doubt, but he isn't the direct defender and runner McCabe is and never will be, he's a classy 10/12 playmaker with an excellent rounded game. His defensive game is a long second to McCabe, while he is far slipperier in attack.

I'd lay a wager Deans put Larkham up to playing McCabe at centre for Brumbies this year, but even if he didn't it is a big comment that Larkham saw him as able to play IC. A gamble that has paid off. Had Barnes been fit all year things might be different, but he wasn't.

I've said it before, will say it again, underestimate Pat McCabe at your peril. The man just keeps getting better.

 

[Slim 293]

A fully fit and firing Barnes would have been selected over McCabe any day of the week, Barnes has proven himself to be a big game player and has a passing game that is a potent attacking weapon. For his size he also has great technique in defence in that he tackles well and can defend the 10 channel when Quade drops deep. Additionally, Barnes provides another kicking option, his short kicking game is unmatched in Australia and he has the ability to completely change the direction of attack. Added to this, he is also a reasonable goal kicker, something that would be very valuable if JOC (James O'Connor) wasn't in the XV due to Ioane regaining his position

McCabe, whilst being a solid defender and very efficient ball carrier, lacks these assets that Barnes possesses. Sure, when on form he is part of a lethal midfield combination, but there is no doubt in my mind that if Deans had the choice between Barnes and McCabe over a month ago, and both were fit, Barnes would easily be Deans first option and we would not be having this discussion right now.

Big game player?

What big games?

Barnes also lacks the 'assets' McCabe carries.

They're different players, but it's wrong to assume that Barnes would've been automatic choice.

On form he was behind Giteau.

And Genia and Cooper have both displayed excellent general play kicking all year. They don't actually need another kicking option.

Even if Barnes was to cover the 10 channel in defence, then you still need to shift players around in the backline.

I would have no one else but Barnes covering 10, but he's currently not our best 12.