Wallabies vs England, Sydney, 3rd Test, 25 June @ 8:00pm

[KOB1987]

I've been involved in junior rugby now since 2008. In that time I've seen massive increases/improvements in the resources thrown at the grassroots level by the ARU/NSWRU. I wasn't really involved much prior to that but I'd go as far to suggest that prior to that time it was pretty much non-existent in this country, probably since the start of the professional era in 1995.

Back then coaches were just dads, and there was no real development pathway for the average kid. Even the talented kids weren't coached properly. Kurtley Beale is a good example here, he was never taught to defend because his job on the team was to run around everyone and score tries.

The kids that came through that era are the ones that are in their prime now, they don't have well rounded skill sets, they were just utilised by the coaches to exploit their strengths without any real focus on fixing up their weaknesses. The bloke that can clear/exit to test standard is probably out there, but he's likely shithouse in other aspects of the game.

Crunching some numbers, I reckon the first of the kids who have come through a more professional programme all the way will be in their mid/late teens now. So hopefully we don't have long to wait, until then we just have to make do with what we've got. Making the RWC final was probably a massive over-achievement.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

As stomach churning as the series loss is, we weren't blown off the park at any stage. There are certainly areas that we need to improve and fast: the discipline and option taking that killed us at crucial times needs to get better. We're normally much smarter on the park than we've shown in the last three tests. Some of the kicking and passing under pressure was poor too. On several crucial occasions we coughed up points by lacking the big match temperament that got us to the final last year, which surprised me.

This series rested on very fine margins and nearly every time there was a series turning moment we either cooked it, got the rough end of a 50/50 call or some other unlucky incident. England didn't suffer from any of this, but equally they seemed to be far more mentally alert and prepared for those big moments. More than anything else I feel we lost the battle between the ears, both on the paddock and in the coaches box. For that England deserve credit as much as our guys deserve criticism. They rose to the challenge in the tough times and we didn't.

 

[Sully]

I'm not enamoured with Phipps or Foley but I can't see an alternative. Phipps' brain explosions and constant yapping isn't helping. foley's kicking has been poor but his game management has been okay but not great.
I'd stick with Kuridrani although I must say Kerevi didn't look out of place in test rugby.
The second row isn't the problem everyone makes it out to be. Just play Simmons and Carter together and put Arnold or Coleman on the bench.
I hear calls for Skelton at eight. This is simple wrong. PERIOD! Too big, too slow not dynamic enough. Not fit enough for the second row then he's certainly no where near fit enough for the back row.
Fardy, Hooper and McMahon are an unbalance back row. and Fardy's form is a worry. Unless that changes in the next few weeks I'd lose Fardy, move McMahon to blindeside and use a heavier eight. If Houston goes okay at the Reds he'd be an option. Jarrod Butler?
Wing? I can't see the Horne hate.

 

[Brumby Runner]

So no reserve halfback? Who goes to the bench with Kuridrani dropped and Kerevi starting? And keep one of the dropped players? Not really answering the question so much. The 7 players were being dropped from the 23 remember? Moore's gone, who's the captain?
It's easy to say drop all these blokes, but to then name an actual team and a balanced bench of sorts with 7 brand new players in the 23 is not so easy.

Have to fess up, I overlooked the reference to Phipps. However, if he were to be dropped, then Powell comes on to the bench. Not saying I would necessarily go that way, but the scenario is that those 7 players are dropped from the 23. If, for instance, Phipps had suffered an injury in one of the earlier tests, then that would have been the arrangement at half back.

Kuridrani could miss the 23 altogether in that scenario, similarly Horne. The bench (assuming a 5/3 split) might be Powell, Lealiifano (Hodge if CLL isn't available in the scenario), Naiyaravoro.

 

[Lee Enfield]

Well, I'm not mad about Skelton at 8 - if he doesn't tick the boxes at the moment, I'm not sure he does with another number! (And no, I wouldn't have picked him either). Hodge interesting, but he might be a future star, so fair enough.
Not a fan of the 6:2 bench with Hooper and McMahon - I'd probably drop one and have another back from that squad.
But at least you had a crack - many seem intent to chuck the players without a lot of thought about an actual team and bench in mind.

Up until last night, I thought Skelton could be an enforcer with and without the ball and that Cheika could bring out his best, I didn't realise how unfit he is, last night unchecked the boxes I thought he checked. In hindsight, Houston at 8 would have been better to try, but can't blame Cheika for trying him.
The 6:2 bench is based on the fact the Poms are so forward orientated. The idea would have been to bring on the two energiser bunnies with 30 mins to go and really up the tempo by pitting them against tired forwards. There is enough versatility in the starting backs to cover injuries. Folau was showing great form at 13 for the Tahs and would kill it feeding off Kerevi. Hodge, DHP and Morahan are very capable kickers and runners so we would have options exiting our 22.

 

[tragic]

I'd ditch Skelton and persist with Coleman, Simmons and Carter
Also put Phipps on the pines and give genia or frisby a run.
I would like to see To'omua get a run at 10 but given he's going o/s I'd persist with foley till we see what QC (Quade Cooper) has to offer
And I'd bring in the biggest boot in the country for Horne who did 2/3 of f@#k all on the wing.
Why not bring back Mogg on the wing and have him slot in to the pocket for all kicks in our half. He's done his two years at Montpellier - not sure if he's signed the option for a third. Adopt the English kick it to the shithouse if we're in our own half strategy. (Instead of our current kick it 20m and gift back attacking ball still in our own half strategy)
That's 3 less tahs so over to you Pfitzy...

 

[Chronicle]

After a very ordinary performance in the second test Phipps directly contributed to the last 10 points against Australia with a poor pass to Folau which led to a turnover and subsequent England try within a couple of phases and then a penalty for taking out the half without the ball at the breakdown putting his team 9 points down
How many chances do we give non performing players

 

[Lee Enfield]

I'm not enamoured with Phipps or Foley but I can't see an alternative. Phipps' brain explosions and constant yapping isn't helping. foley's kicking has been poor but his game management has been okay but not great.
I'd stick with Kuridrani although I must say Kerevi didn't look out of place in test rugby.
The second row isn't the problem everyone makes it out to be. Just play Simmons and Carter together and put Arnold or Coleman on the bench.
I hear calls for Skelton at eight. This is simple wrong. PERIOD! Too big, too slow not dynamic enough. Not fit enough for the second row then he's certainly no where near fit enough for the back row.
Fardy, Hooper and McMahon are an unbalance back row. and Fardy's form is a worry. Unless that changes in the next few weeks I'd lose Fardy, move McMahon to blindeside and use a heavier eight. If Houston goes okay at the Reds he'd be an option. Jarrod Butler?
Wing? I can't see the Horne hate.

Regards Skelton, he has massive upside, but last night showed is simply too unfit for a professional player. I honestly didn't realise how unfit he is. He needs to be given a kick in the arse and the coaching staff at the Tahs are equally responsible. If he shed the fat and got fit, he would be a viable 8 in the future.

 

[Pfitzy]

Or you could.
There's a common denominator here..

I've got nothing in common with people who are suggesting shrill panic and wholesale changes.

They're probably the same mental midgets who thought Cheika engineered Link's downfall through his sleeper agent, Kurtley Beale, and that the NSW power brokers had finally got their way.

The very same "fans" of Australian rugby that had the knives out for Cheika after taking a good Wallaby squad and losing badly on EOYT.

A largely similar group, I imagine, were applauding the effort our team made to get into the RWC final, despite the fucking basket case that Australian rugby had become in the wake of Link's departure.

Remember when getting out of our group was not a done deal? And that time we fucking tackled Wales into the ground, and tore England apart at their home ground to advance?

Fuck, you wouldn't know it, looking at some of the carry-on in this thread. Lot of people here sound like indigo children raised by helicopter parents; like they live in a universe where everyone wins a fucking prize and they're a special little snowflake.

We got done by a better team, who played their brand of rugby very well. We were a couple of decisions away from winning in Brisbane, and again in Sydney, despite all the flaws that were evident.

Is it rosy? Fuck no. We need to improve or the ABs are going to fuck us good and hard. But we need to stay the course, even if we need to adjust the heading a little.

I've seen some pretty stupid shit on here, but the suggestions in this thread are getting more ridiculous than ever before.

The "pro" coaches here should understand that one thing you don't do after a loss is throw the baby out with the bathwater. Neither after a win do you praise too much, because there is always something to work on.

Continuity.

I'm fucking glad none of these deep thinkers are at MY club, that's for sure.

 

[Lee Enfield]

I'd ditch Skelton and persist with Coleman, Simmons and Carter
Also put Phipps on the pines and give genia or frisby a run.
I would like to see To'omua get a run at 10 but given he's going o/s I'd persist with foley till we see what QC (Quade Cooper) has to offer
And I'd bring in the biggest boot in the country for Horne who did 2/3 of f@#k all on the wing.
Why not bring back Mogg on the wing and have him slot in to the pocket for all kicks in our half. He's done his two years at Montpellier - not sure if he's signed the option for a third. Adopt the English kick it to the shithouse if we're in our own half strategy. (Instead of our current kick it 20m and gift back attacking ball still in our own half strategy)
That's 3 less tahs so over to you Pfitzy.

Agree with locks, Coleman had a good debut and throw in Arnold, our lock stocks look good going forward.

 

[RedsHappy]

Just re kicking mentors, specialist kicking coaching etc:

http://www.espn.com.au/rugby/story/...ny-wilkinson-kicking-england-series-whitewash

 

[Red Rose]

I haven't really got into this debate. But my thoughts.
#2 playing #3. Wallabies playing shite and England playing the best they have for years, still relatively narrow losses.
Lots (and I mean lots) of room for improvement from Aus, little for England.

Congratulations to England for peaking for the 2015 RWC, in the 2016 rebuilding year.

You are wrong on England. They have lots to improve on. They have gone back to having strong set piece and being well marshalled at half backs, but there is plenty of improvement in their overall attacking game to come. I don't think Farrell offers much in attacking terms (superb kicking) and Nowell and Brown did not really fire. Hopefully one day Manu Tuilagi will regain his fitness and he should return. Much more to come in that area for me. But Australia are always a class act and if Pocock had remained fit then things may well have been different.

Looking forward to the next test in November already.

 

[Lee Enfield]

So we should just keep on keeping on, with the aim of doing the same thing with the same players, but better........Interesting philosophy.....if it didn't work against the Poms, it won't against the All Blacks and probably won't against the Saffas and Argies. If we learn nothing and change nothing from this series, the best we will go in the RC is 2 losses to the All Blacks and home wins against the Saffas and Argies.
No one is throwing the baby out with bath water, but throwing out the under performers and giving others a chance to step up and see if they can perform better.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Pfitzy nails it for mine. As far as Skelton at eight, not in a month of Sundays unless he develops a bigger motor. I'd much rather run Leroy through that position.

 

[Dismal Pillock]

I've seen some pretty stupid shit on here, but the suggestions in this thread are getting more ridiculous than ever before.

All for it! Pfitzy, the internet is the place to come the day after a loss and pack a massively deranged hyperbolic rant, cursing the gods, Quade, the ref, Pat Lam, Nucifora, the cheating foreigners, the works

 

[Pfitzy]

All for it! Pfitzy, the internet is the place to come the day after a loss and pack a massively deranged hyperbolic rant, cursing the gods, Quade, the ref, Pat Lam, Nucifora, the cheating foreigners, the works

You forgot Deans.

ALWAYS blame DEANS

 

[The torpedo]

All for it! Pfitzy, the internet is the place to come the day after a loss and pack a massively deranged hyperbolic rant, cursing the gods, Quade, the ref, Pat Lam, Nucifora, the cheating foreigners, the works

It's missing another option:

 

[The torpedo]

You forgot Deans.

ALWAYS blame DEANS

Don't forget NSW

 

[dru]

My natural inclination and prejudice is to see Phipps replaced with Frisbey, QC (Quade Cooper) back at 10, Simmo to be partnered with anyone but Skelton.

But its just a prejudice.

Just re-watched the game. Skelton was more active on the field than I can remember, England tried one maul only while he was on, and immediately upped the mauls when he was off. And thats just one part of his game. Its inaccurate to say he had no impact. He's not in my armchair selectors team, but he played well.

Phipps and Foley. What on earth is the fuss about? I'd not be happy if Genia/Quade played at that level and got this response. And Phipps and Foley can defend. Really really defend. OK kicking could be better, Phipps pass was not 110%, but hell, these guys played well.

Horne, hmm. It was hard to find his involvement, but this can happen on the wing. Dont think he starts next time though.

Hooper was wonderful, McMahon NOT too small for 8 was a supersized Hooper, To'omua rounds my top three.

Problems on Slippers side of the scrum, Fardy and Simmo didnt seem to me to give him a platform. That try scored when Hooper was on the wrong side and got off the scrum late? (Like 0.75s late). Fardy had just been injured, Hooper stepped in with a remit to push. Think we have to live with it.

That was a fantastic game of rugby. The kind of rugby I want to watch. Complete kudos to Cheika and Eddie for giving it to me. This rugby fan appreciates.

Some tough work now, Cheika, but there are some who are still with you.

 

[dru]

Oh, and the suggestion that England cant go a lot further is horseshite. These guys now travelling to where they should always have been in the top three (talking long term), and ultimately challenging for the top spot.