Wallabies vs England, Perth

[OZGOD]

Well the Tache at least gave us credit for having noobies in the front row. Not a bad writeup actually.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/rugby_union/article7148998.ece

 

[OZGOD]

I thought that our young front row did a great job. They obviously weren't up to Englands standard but they showed allot of heart and did well at times. Should Baxter have been recalled? I doubt the scrum would've been any better with Baxter on the field but I'm sure those with a shrine to the big man at home will surely disagree. Where to go from here? I can't see any improvement in the scrum until we get some cattle back but it could get messy.

I don't think they did a great job - rather, they did as well as could probably be expected of them. I've revised my opinion of them slightly since I've found out that they're probably our 3rd choice front row, but they're well short of Test quality at the moment. Provincial level front row vs Test level English props. I seem to recall Baxter doing reasonably well against the Poms at Twickers a couple of years ago. Didn't he end up forcing Sheridan to leave the field and go look for a proctologist to pull his head out of his arse after getting mullered in the scrum? I don't know if he's deteriorated since then since I haven't seen most of this year's S14. Baxter/Dunning wouldn't be a huge improvement by any means but they can at least keep a scrum solid.

On the plus side, they can take this reaming a couple of ways - it can demoralise them when they see how far off they are from Test standard, or they can suck it up and figure out what they have to do to get to that level. I think it will be the latter as they're only young blokes, but it certainly wasn't a pleasant initiation. Can't remember the last time a top Test nation conceded two penalty tries due to scrum collapses.

 

[RedsHappy]

The win is great, but the same performance against a good team would not bring the same result.

Absolutely.

As the English media are reporting this morning (our time), England missed 20+ tackles in the first half, this was a big 'hidden' let off for us. The ABs and SBs will simply never grant us that leeway. Further, our handling error count was very poor, I have not seen the stats but I suspect the count was worryingly high. It was bad v Fiji as well, and of course the ever-dubious 'rustiness' excuse was rushed out here. The top Tris teams would have exploited those errors and mixed skills levels far more ruthlessly.

At present, as we all know, England 2010 are a shadow of the 2003 version. If we could not beat this team at home by 15-20 points we should be aghast and sacking people, a loss would have been a true disaster, and we came remarkably close to it.

There have _never before_ been two penalty tries awarded against one team in Test play amongst the top 8 nations (or so the English media are all noting today). This aspect of this Test was, objectively, an humiliation for Australian rugby. It should not be apologised for, just as inserting Weeks to play on the wrong side of the scrum in the BaaBaas match was an example of needless and humiliating selection that I doubt will be for those made victims the 'good learning experience' that Deans alleges. These destructive and dangerous selections by Deans were reckless renditions of stubbornness, driven on by a generally fawning media seduced by the 'wonders of promoting youth at all costs' argument that is, increasingly, Deans' crutch upon which his ongoing strategies (yielding an near-all-time-low W-L ratio to date) and the equally dangerous 'it's all about the RWC' thesis are justified.

Summary: if England had not played so ordinarily in attack and via their inhibited and anxious backs, we would surely have lost this match.

Compare this outing to the first halves played last night by the ABs and SBs. You will be left far more concerned for our team's relative capabilities than indicated by those still buying the happy line that items like Burgess renaissance, the flair of Copper, etc, are enticed and convinced by.

I am afraid to confess that today's generally bright and breezy assessments of the Perth Test remind me so errily of the 'happy hours' of following 2009's June internationals. Then immediately came the very poor results in the Tris and the far-from-grand-slam outcome in Europe, centred on the horror show at Murrayfield.

Let's hope that this time there truly is more to base our longer-term confidence on, but a top team that makes the large number of handling errors of last night and whom so egregiously mismanages forwards selections as was evident last night, and relies upon victories over mediocre opposition to warm its media and fans, will not win the Tris. And if we do not _credibly_ aspire to win the Tris, there will be no RWC triumph to vindicate the still-happy enthusiasms for the Deans' era, now in its third season.

 

[RedsHappy]

Just watched the first penalty try again.

.....
In short, there were problems with binds and body height all through the tight 5. The poms had 30kgs on us as well which guaranteed any weakenesses would be magnified. I suspect Mumm will go back to the bench (or possibly to the back row). Chisholm will start. Everyone will be watching the Gosford game before deciding on what changes to make to the front row but they will be careful about throwing out the baby with the bath water. The worst outcome is that we end up with another weak scrum (even if slightly better than last night) but also weaken our general play. Oh, and this passage was pretty well reffed by Owens.

If anyone was or is interested, I would love to see a fact-based discussion here on the following topic:

Compare and contrast the selections, scrum training and scrum strategies deployed by:

Example A - Reds v Bulls and Reds v Stormers ( both SA teams had generally the best forwards overall in the S14, certainly the equal of 2010's England) and where the Reds obtained scrum and forwards parity (generally) and won both games quite well, yet possessed no real 'superstar' or multiple (then) Wallaby forwards AND

Example B - Aus v England 12 June 2010 Perth where Aus (with the pick of all S14 and Wallabies forwards, bar injuries) had an experience of total forwards destruction and suffered two penalty tries accordingly, and nearly lost the match

Gentlemen : this is your assignment ...

 

[Ishmael]

If anyone was or is interested, I would love to see a fact-based discussion here on the following topic:

Compare and contrast the selections, scrum training and scrum strategies deployed by:

Example A - Reds v Bulls and Reds v Stormers ( both SA teams had generally the best forwards overall in the S14, certainly the equal of 2010's England) and where the Reds obtained scrum and forwards parity (generally) and won both games quite well, yet possessed no real 'superstar' or multiple (then) Wallaby forwards AND

Example B - Aus v England 12 June 2010 Perth where Aus (with the pick of all S14 and Wallabies forwards, bar injuries) had an experience of total forwards destruction and suffered two penalty tries accordingly, and nearly lost the match

Gentlemen : this is your assignment ...

Says who? Saffa scrummaging hasn't been up to much in recent years and Dan Cole, who absolutely monstered Daley, is by all accounts a very good TH scrummager. Apples and oranges unfortunately.

 

[RedsHappy]

Says who? Saffa scrummaging hasn't been up to much in recent years and Dan Cole, who absolutely monstered Daley, is by all accounts a very good TH scrummager. Apples and oranges unfortunately.

Interesting that you assess SA scrum skills and outcomes as 'not up to much' etc. Personally, I differ. I think an examination of (i) the SA scrum vs France last night and (ii) the Bulls vs Stormers scrum work in the S14 Final this year (and numerous other examples from this year's S14) would be factual counters to your assessment.

 

[Ishmael]

Interesting that you assess SA scrum skills and outcomes as 'not up to much' etc. Personally, I differ. I think an examination of (i) the SA scrum vs France last night and (ii) the Bulls vs Stormers scrum work in the S14 Final this year (and numerous other examples from this year's S14) would be factual counters to your assessment.

Possibly. But then the Saffa scrum last night was a combination of Bulls, Sharks and someone else (wasn't paying enough attention to notice who the THP was.) On what basis can you say the Bulls and Stormers scrums were just as good as England's last night? Have you seen this England front row scrum before?

 

[cyclopath]

RH, I would agree a bit with Ishmael in that the SA teams have been OK at S14 level, as have at least some of the Aus teams, but translated it less well to internationals, largely due to their insistence to play Smit out of position. Last night, I would not have said the SA scrum dominated. France was giving them some real lessons, but SA got better in the second half (after Smit went off). There are several variables between S14 and Test level - refereeing, other members of the pack, general style and pace of play. I think the front row is too often isolated as an issue, and the unity of the pack of 8 under-emphasised. Clearly our front row is struggling, but there is more to it.
Training interests me - I wonder how much contested scrum practice goes on, as opposed to scrum machines, which don't flex / turn / twist and play games back at you?

 

[RedsHappy]

Possibly. But then the Saffa scrum last night was a combination of Bulls, Sharks and someone else (wasn't paying enough attention to notice who the THP was.) On what basis can you say the Bulls and Stormers scrums were just as good as England's last night? Have you seen this England front row scrum before?

Let me say, I am not a Phd in scrums and will never be ;-). I have watched a few England 6N games and, whilst I can't argue this with statistical values, I would argue that the best of the Bulls or Stormers scrums this year could absolutely contest adequately or well with England's scrums as they have been this year. Btw, few of the English rugby media would argue that England's 2010 scrum pack is a 'classically great' one compared to other vintages. I suspect we are getting a bit excited about the England scrum last night as they seemed so like Gods to our youngster front row. I also would argue that the Stormers fabulous 'points against' summary result at the end of the whole S14 could have or would have been obtained without, amongst other things, an excellent scrum, in terms of overall performance.

 

[RedsHappy]

RH, I would agree a bit with Ishmael in that the SA teams have been OK at S14 level, as have at least some of the Aus teams, but translated it less well to internationals,.....
Training interests me - I wonder how much contested scrum practice goes on, as opposed to scrum machines, which don't flex / turn / twist and play games back at you?

Indeed, to your good latter point. One of the reasons for my 'assignment' was to debate this whole matter of scrum training and coaching a bit. For example, there can be no doubt that McKenzie's expertise had a huge positive impact on the unity, cohesion and balance of the Reds' scrum. Again, the Reds scrum had no superstars and few if any Wallabies. And there's no doubt IMO that you're right that many here are focussing on the front row, but are there no critical takeaways from the back 5's performance from last night and 'the cohesion of the whole'.?...do recall that we barely held scrum parity vs Fiji, we did not dominate and blast away their scrum, and note the comparatively tiny development and coaching resources Fiji has vs Aus, let alone the fact that their players have to live almost all year in Europe with other teams There were bad omens for our scrum embedded in that match.

 

[Ishmael]

Indeed, to your good latter point. One of the reasons for my 'assignment' was to debate this whole matter of scrum training and coaching a bit. For example, there can be no doubt that McKenzie's expertise had a huge positive impact on the unity, cohesion and balance of the Reds' scrum. Again, the Reds scrum had no superstars and few if any Wallabies. And there's no doubt IMO that you're right that many here are focussing on the front row, but are there no critical takeaways from the back 5's performance from last night and 'the cohesion of the whole'.?...do recall that we barely held scrum parity vs Fiji, we did not dominate and blast away their scrum, and note the comparatively tiny development and coaching resources Fiji has vs Aus, let alone the fact that their players have to live almost all year in Europe with other teams There were bad omens for our scrum embedded in that match.

The problem is it's very difficult to assess the work of the back 5 when the props are being reamed. Daley in particular was clearly no match for his opposite last night and I don't think it would have mattered who was coaching or who he had pushing behind him.

 

[Epi]

Ma'afu is club rugby standard at best. Don't think Peter McNeilly* got the pats on the back these guys are getting.

*Obscure boxing reference...

 

[rugbymatt07]

Berrick's VOMIT?

A bit off topic from the scrum business - did anyone notice at one point in the game after a break-down (try/penalty... I can't really remember) the camera focused on Berrick and it looked like he projectile vomitted
He was either vomitting or spitting out heaps of water that he must have had sitting in his mouth for ages... was wierd.

Maybe he was sick because he was so surprised and impressed with the game Burgess was playing and the awesome service he was giving Quade and Berrick?? :lmao:

 

[DPK]

A bit off topic from the scrum business - did anyone notice at one point in the game after a break-down (try/penalty... I can't really remember) the camera focused on Berrick and it looked like he projectile vomitted
He was either vomitting or spitting out heaps of water that he must have had sitting in his mouth for ages... was wierd.

Maybe he was sick because he was so surprised and impressed with the game Burgess was playing and the awesome service he was giving Quade and Berrick?? :lmao:

I saw that, I'm pretty sure it was the yellow (lemon) Gatorade/Powerade.

 

[louie]

anyone think barnes was rubbish?

 

[fatprop]

anyone think barnes was rubbish?

not anyone who knows about rugby

 

[naza]

anyone think barnes was rubbish?

Plenty of us have had enough of Barnes - see the Wallabies vs England, Sydney thread.

 

[Ruggo]

Did anyone think the Sookface and Quade combination looked uncomfortable. I did not see much comraderie amongst them. Mr Barnes a bit of control freak who can't play second fiddle? I'm pissed off that Barnes basically killed off any chance of Horne getting any ball. With the late pull out, Fainga'a would of made more sense. Yes he is green but he knows exactly how to play alongside Cooper.

I am not a Robbie basher but you said selections were based on Super 14 form. Stop contradicting yourself Robbie.

 

[Reddy!]

not anyone who has a NSW bias

What was that?

 

[Reddy!]

I am not a Robbie basher but you said selections were based on Super 14 form. Stop contradicting yourself Robbie.

Form in the bedroom counts as well.