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Wallabies v Poms, EOYT 2010, Twickenham

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Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
When John Eales was appointed captain in the first place, I was sceptical to be honest...and now he is regarded as one of the game's greatest ever captains!

Anyone here put his/her hand up having had these same thoughts as me back then?

Nope because firstly and foremost he was an automatic selection in any side he played for, he was respected world wide for his play and showed that he could lead by his performance to the teams he played with including the responsibility of calling lineouts etc.
 

Groucho

Greg Davis (50)
Don't comment, don't critique, don't worry about it, because you can't do it with full knowledge because you aren't in the "know" so to speak. Fine then close up the Blog and Forum and everyone go home.

I don't think anyone is suggesting we cannot critique, Gnostic. But deciding what we don't know is just as important (and as interesting) as writing about what we do.

We all suffer from pundititis: it is a consequence of writing on the Internet. Contrarian voices are a useful antidote to that, like criticism is a useful foil to the adulation of a coach. :)
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
I will just reply on this part alone - Universal praise - what a crock of shit, I did not think he should have toured last year let alone be Captain.

IMO Elsom wasn't even the form 6 in Oz this year and he didn't play he last year. In fact he was probably third best behind Mowen and Higginbum this year. Remember even the Ponies supporters were bemoaning the fact the Elsom was a shadow of his form prior to his NH stint throughout the S14. In fact I will go so far as to say the last game was his best since his return and that is still off his best.

I would ask who is our most consistant forward and that would be Pocock, followed by Sharpe. I agree that it is too soon to give Pocock the Captaincy and I want him to concentrate on hi game. I would however give the job to Sharpe who has done a magnificent job with the Force and is probably along with Pocock the first choice forward.

Gnostic:
You might be surprised but he was not selected as captain on the 2009 tour based on his super 14 2010 form.
Sharpe did not tour as he was injured.
Elsom was our best forward before he went to Ireland, and was MOM in 2 of his last 3 games there.
 

naza

Alan Cameron (40)
Seems like Naza is the only one that reads other peoples comments. Thanks for the videos and feedback lad :thumb

Yeah, no worries. Don't be discouraged by the lack of feedback, can happen in these 20+ page threads and some take a while to warm up to newer posters.

I'm with you on everything but the media responsibility. These guys have shown they don't exactly need a written invitation to talk themselves up. And don't get caught up in one off victories - remember the embarrassing backslapping by our boys after the first scrum in the 2nd domestic test against England earlier this year ? That's part of maturation process - learning that its actions over the full 80 minutes that count, and that how well you played last game, you start back at zero your next.
 

naza

Alan Cameron (40)
When John Eales was appointed captain in the first place, I was sceptical to be honest...and now he is regarded as one of the game's greatest ever captains!

See, I'm not with you on that. Everything I've seen, read and heard leads me to believe that Gregan was the true leader of those sides. Eales was slowly pushed aside and effectively captain in name only. Macqueen wanted to dump Eales as captain after 12 months in the job, Eales was struggling so badly. I don't care what anybody says. You cannot convince me Eales has a charismatic bone in his body. Not with that gasping effeminate voice and stiff awkward body language.

Fabulous player. Respected. Truly rare talent. Wonderful guy. 100 times the person and give-back-to-the-community type than I am ! Just not a leader on the field.

I did have a theory for a while that a World Cup winning team needed a special person as its captain - Pienaar, NFJ, Johnson, Kirk, Smit. In '99 we had Gregan, Horan, Herbert, Burke, Wilson, Giffin and a strong manager filling the gulf. It was leadership by committee.
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
MacQuen and Eales certainly had their difficult moments, especially early on. I think that was a partnership that grew with time and it certainly helped having the leadership in a pivotal position that George provided. Eales was a follow me style of leader, rather like Rocky. I was in favour of the Rock getting the captaincy at the time, because basically he was an automatic selection in the team and because of the other candidates, he stood out. I'm not so sure now, but he's got an even younger team and someone has to lead them. Sharpie is the only other player with the stature and respect needed in the team to be leader. He's also an automatic selection. A fit Horwill probably the same, but errr, he's not fit. Had TPN not come along I would have also thought about Stephen Moore.
 

Gagger

Nick Farr-Jones (63)
Staff member
My latest blog over at the London Telegraph http://my.telegraph.co.uk/rugby/mattgagger/695/australia-lose-to-new-england-at-twickenham/

Australia lose to New England at Twickenham

By Matt Rowley, Green & Gold Rugby

As I sat shivering on the media gantry at Twickenham on Saturday, I couldn’t help feeling I’d seen this game before, in fact multiple times over the past three years; the ‘Men in Gold’ being ruthlessly exposed by a team wearing dark jerseys (and it wasn’t just a Saffa referee crying “hands off black seven!”, although that certainly helped).

Credit to Johnno and the England brains trust; if you were tasked with the job of beating this Wallabies team, whose game-plan would you look to lift word for word and implement? How about a team that’s beaten Australia 10 of the last 11 times – New Zealand?

wobblies.jpg

Wobblies: Australia were taught a cruel lesson at Twickenham PHOTO: GETTY IMAGES

Well done if they did, because this game was a carbon copy of what New Zealand have done to Australia many times over the last few years, especially in those games where the All Blacks really must win, like the opening Bledisloe and Tri-Nations matches of the season.

The hallmarks were all there.

Central to it was attacking the tackle area. The Wallabies religiously stick to the fan or “picket fence” defence, preferring to commit the bare minimum to the breakdown and to re-allocate those defenders across the park.

This relies on their fetchers David Pocock and Rocky Elsom to compete at the breakdown and bolsters the defence of a backline that is not only small by modern standards, but holds in it some true turnstiles.

New Zealand, and England on Saturday, make a mockery of this tactic by bulldozing through the pretence of a ruck like a wrecking ball through bowling pins.

Where the Wallabies tried to get to the ball, the All Whites got above and then beyond it. At best it forces the turnover, at worst it interminably slows the ball without “hands on” penalties and puts bodies “legally” on the wrong side of the ball.

Another tell-tale sign was what I call the “sucker-punch”. Time and again the Wallabies put together fancy attacking phase play, working their way up field, for a forced turnover and break-out to have the play at the other end of the field in seconds through devastating counter-attack. At the minimum there’ll be a penalty, but it could be far worse, and what feels like a tight game is ballooning away on the scoreboard.

Which is what the key numbers say from Saturday. It was two tries apiece, 12 penalties to England vs 11 for Australia, and seven shots at goal vs five. Theoretically a six-point game, but far from that in reality, because it wouldn’t be a Wallaby performance without a goal kicking disaster. In this case it was Toby Flood rather than Dan Carter nailing all his shots. Was it a coincidence that New England conceded so many of their penalties out wide and just inside their half?

In the end though, it’s one thing to know the right game-plan, another to implement it, which the England in black team did particularly well. For Australia though, the “secret’s” out and it’s not just the Kiwis who know how to use it. How much longer can it go un-fixed?

Follow Matt on Twitter @Matt_Gagger
 

Joe Mac

Arch Winning (36)
Good article Gagger,

We should have stayed at the Eel Pie Pub after that performance. What a waste of £70!

Your last point is pretty important. "Was it a coincidence that New England conceded so many of their penalties out wide and just inside their half?" Of course this was part of their plan, the opposing coaches of every team must be sitting there dumfounded how the WB's can be so shit at kicking- WHAT AN OPPORTUNITY! Converting penalties for a professional in this day and age should be pretty straight forward, hence the reason why every international team bar ours can slot them very consistently. This is just a guess, and probably something for Austin the stat's man to look into but, I would venture to say that the Wobblies kicking success rate is the worst of any team in the history of rugby in the professional era.

The other area that needs to be addressed in consistency. The Wallabies are the new France. Always guaranteed to create a few upsets through the international season and always guaranteed to choke before they can gain any silverware out of it.

I have been firmly a Deans believer thus far and I still am but, the kicking and consistency issues dont seem to be player problems but team problems and they are the issues a coach should be responsible for fixing. If he cant get these issues sorted out before the WC then his work as coach should be treated as a failure.
 

Nusadan

Chilla Wilson (44)
Good article Gagger,

We should have stayed at the Eel Pie Pub after that performance. What a waste of £70!

Glad I didn't make the trek down from Scotland then...how were the Pommie supporters celebrating in the local pubs in the aftermath?

Had went to the Guinness Premiership final last season, and despite a full house for the game, it was pretty quiet in pubs after the match...
 

dobduff11

Trevor Allan (34)
Not sure about some of that Joe,

Wobblies kicking success rate is the worst of any team in the history of rugby in the professional era.

You guys didn't do to badly with Burke and Flately as your kickers I'm pretty sure you have always had players selected in the side that were quality kickers, Burke, Flately, Mortlock 2000 Version, Andrew Walker kicked for a bit, John Eales. It's only recently with Gits and 2007 Morty that you have been bad.

the kicking and consistency issues dont seem to be player problems

Kicking is an individual skill, most people kick from an early age and they are the ones that get coached for it but to be honest you have to have the talent first and you can't coach the skill. Only one kicker that is not a natural I know of is Benji Marshall who practises with a coach all the time. Coaching helps a bit but its down to the player.

Also consistency can also be a player issue, Quade has always been inconsistent in the pro game so thats not really Deans' fault.
 

Joe Mac

Arch Winning (36)
Good make some points Dobduff,

however, I was referring to the Wallabies of the last 12 months. Not our team in the professional era.

I still think kicking can be taught. They should let JOC (James O'Connor) stay at home until the S15 starts, with a kicking coach and get him to practice for 8 hours a day for the next 3 months. Let Giteau head back there for the same treatment.

Maybe QC (Quade Cooper) home for some mungo tacking coaching?
 

Joe Mac

Arch Winning (36)
Glad I didn't make the trek down from Scotland then...how were the Pommie supporters celebrating in the local pubs in the aftermath?

Had went to the Guinness Premiership final last season, and despite a full house for the game, it was pretty quiet in pubs after the match...

Nusadan,

As usual, they were terrible sports. As if the thrashing in the game wasn't enough. The worst part was going to work this morning. I was given more shit than when we lost the ashes last year!
 

JJJ

Vay Wilson (31)
The good thing about living in a state where nobody gives a toss about rugby is that after a loss like that you can pretend it never happened for as long as you like. All you have to do is avoid the tiny portion of the internet devoted to the sport.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
[video=youtube;ytg5AcPWPSw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytg5AcPWPSw&feature=player_embedded[/video]

Just for clarification @ .30, shouldn't the defenders release Genia?

14 & 10 were tacklers and never released unless there is a special "Twickers" ruling

Of course you know that answer to that, and it was so unbelievably obvious at the time it was difficult to see how it wasn't picked up.

So two England tries and two clear infringements that Joubert didn't pick up. I'm starting to thing he is as bad as Kaplan when it comes to reffing the wallabies.
 

Gagger

Nick Farr-Jones (63)
Staff member
I have a real problem with this. I believe England were the better team on the day, but even live and from 4 stories up in the stand I could see that turnover was bogus. Just shits me when it's this obvious.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
(1) RH, they might be substantive issues and you were verbose in your post,but there was very little of fact or substance in your musings. (2) Kicking: I actually agree that RD stuck with Gits too long. However your claims that RD is negligent in not grooming a succesor is ridiculous. the kickers for each of the S14 sides are in the WB run on side. BTW JOC (James O'Connor) has regular kicking sessions with Halligan,and though only 20 has played as many tests as Mark Ella . (3) Defence: You mention statistics & benchmarks but quote none. (4) You now claim it is RD's fault that QC (Quade Cooper) has been exposed. had RD dropped him this tour, you would have assembled the lynch mob! You can't be raving about QC (Quade Cooper)'s form in June, then sacking the coach for playing him in the next game! (5) You have previously criticised RD for his choice in his skills coach, you then criticise him because his skills coach received a better job offer & resigned. RD appoints a new skills coach for the tour & you then criticise him for that as well! Your assertion that Aust has a long tradition of rock solid defence is overstated, it is true when we have winning teams. (6) - mental skills. Did you ever consider that in a TEST match the 60 minute mark is about how long it takes a dominant side to assert itself? (7) Your quip about the "plan a minute developed on site" has more to do with the 10 not being able to implement, than the coach giving no instructions. I do not accept that Deans does not use sports Psychologists. - (8) forwards and breakdown. You don't actually make a point other than we do not have 8 bam bams.......(b) In terms of your criticism of Rocky as captain, it was universally praised upon his appointment. in any event who else could have been chosen at that time?They had to be senior & had to be capable of holding their spot for a few years...name an alternative AT THAT POINT IN TIME. (8) In terms of your complaint about selections for baa baa & Aust A games, how many were played?
That's enough to get me started.....
<numbers above added by respondent>

ILTW: Just right of the posts I'm afraid. You have egregiously distorted virtually every point I made, then attacked the distortion, and then thrown in an unnecessarily aggressive undertone. We went through this process once before, the Cooper-in-court thread. Anyway, let me (hopefully) please the word-count police and deal with just some of the points as succinctly as possible:

2. RD has manifestly not groomed a successor kicker in the proper developmental sense I referenced. I know the facts re other S14 kickers in the team. Building a successor(s) would have entailed: through, say, 2009, have another kicker either share match duties, and/or consistently take a type of kick (as was just once sloppily trialled v Ireland this year), and/or kick as No 1 in lower profile Tests. Then, a specialised kicking coach would have been retained to support train with the main kicker, and two support/successor kickers until the % success rate over a season was a minimum 80%+. Just look at the kicking disasters this year up to and including Saturday. If it wasn't so serious, it'd be utterly laughable frankly in a top-tier football team. I still say: picking JO'C as No 1, is high-risk/potentially ill-considered, for the reasons noted.

3. Re defence. I did certainly quote facts and stats, namely by referencing the peerless Austin's published (here) work. You can easily find it, it's all 100% clear, and additionally see his blog today. All his predictions have come true re the negative impact on w-l if the Wallabies could not sustain a successful tackle ratio at about 90% v top teams. Just look at Saturday - every objective commentator has been appalled at the Wallabies' poor defence in key match....and this is after 3 full seasons under Deans. The idea that this is not any proper responsibility/accountability of a top coach/es after 3 years in the saddle is laughable, sorry. Then, if you add point 2 above to 3 here, it's nearly a disgrace of poor technical coaching depth and critical KPI underachievement by the team and coaches. Most commentators would argue that Australia once did have consistent excellence in defence, so we disagree when you argue this was never the case.

4. I did not call for QC (Quade Cooper) to be dropped; I said the fact that his massive defence inadequacies had not improved was IMO in part a coach's responsibility and was tied in with the whole poor situation as per 3 above.

6. You have just completed misunderstood/distorted my point. The point is that the required 'mental fortitude/hard mind' in a top team is required for all of 80 minutes, not all of 60. Please name the sports psychologists that RD has used, that would help.

5. Re Skills Coach Graham. Do you consider that the NZRU would happily release one of The Cartel to go to a provincial side 10 months before a RWC? Of course not, as they have achieved outstanding KPIs for NZ and all three are deemed critical to 2011. Nothing will convince me that if RG had been doing a similarly capable job for Oz, the ARU would have let him drop off a highly important (to 2011) EOYT and thus requiring 'emergency coaching replacements' for such a tour...plus I fail to see any meaningful core 'Skills' KPI that RG actually delivered upon 2009-10.

8b. Elsom - a coach plus the ARU picks a Captain. Both coach and Captain should properly be judged on the calibre of that call, as revealed over time. Personally, and this is of course debatable, I would rate him since commencement as Captain about 6/10.
 

barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
RH as I have already said I disagree with a lot of those points on broad ideological grounds, so won't go over old ground again.

However I do think you are wrong in your point about kicking:

RD has manifestly not groomed a successor kicker in the proper developmental sense I referenced. I know the facts re other S14 kickers in the team. Building a successor(s) would have entailed: through, say, 2009, have another kicker either share match duties, and/or consistently take a type of kick (as was just once sloppily trialled v Ireland this year), and/or kick as No 1 in lower profile Tests. Then, a specialised kicking coach would have been retained to support train with the main kicker, and two support/successor kickers until the % success rate over a season was a minimum 80%+. Just look at the kicking disasters this year up to and including Saturday. If it wasn't so serious, it'd be utterly laughable frankly in a top-tier football team. I still say: picking JO'C as No 1, is high-risk/potentially ill-considered, for the reasons noted.

Kicking at test match level does not improve with experience, the case of Giteau has proved that. So this idea of 'grooming' a successor by having him kick in lower level tests to build up experience is pointless. If you can kick goals you can kick goals at any level, there is no correlation between test played and superior kicking percentages. Carter and Wilko were potting them from everywhere in game 1, it didn't take them 15 tests to get there.

Also you seem to think having a kicking coach is a magic bullet for all of our problems. You think this coach should just 'train up' our kickers until they got to 80%. Well if its that easy why not keep going until we can hit 100%? Its not like training a racehorse. I don't know the answer to our kicking problems, and I think a lot of it is overstated (consider the location of JOC (James O'Connor)'s kicks on the weekend- 75% were from 40m out or on the sideline or both. That comes down to Rocky's option taking rather than JOCs kicking). But I know that these guys practice their kicking a hell of a lot, and it is not a precise science that can be easily 'trained' by bringing in a coach. That might help, but the problem is not as simple as you make it out to be.
 
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