Wallabies v All Blacks @ Suncorp - 18/10/14

[I like to watch]

They rested Ben Smith for this test. He's back for the EOYT.

Says a bit about the AB's perception of us.
Which sides can we afford to play without our very best ATM?

 

[Train Without a Station]

Because we already have about 8-10 first choice 23 players out - none.

 

[Viking]

How many years ago was that now?... Lol dags form has been lacking for as long as crudens form has. They are only in because the coach likes the combos, and as happened last week, to rest players.
Smith is faaaar better then dag!
Barrett is faaaar better the cruden!

IMO that's pretty alarming for us. You know what they say "class is permanent, form is temporary". Both are classy players. I don't think it would take much for them to get back into form. Cruden especially, and that will only strengthen the depth of the All Blacks.

Smith is certainly one of the best players in the world and Barrett is getting some great international experience.

News on Carter? Who knows how his form is after so many injuries.

 

[Bullrush]

Because we already have about 8-10 first choice 23 players out - none.

Really?!? 8-10??. Moore, TPN (you can only play one if these guys at a time though), Pocock and at a stretch, Speight (totally untested at Test level as yet), QC (Quade Cooper) ( could have played but Link didn't choose to) and maybe Genia (who has been out of form for a while now). 8-10 first choice is stretching it a bit I think.


Sent from my iPhone

 

[Viking]

Really?!? 8-10??. Moore, TPN (you can only play one if these guys at a time though), Pocock and at a stretch, Speight (totally untested at Test level as yet), QC (Quade Cooper) ( could have played but Link didn't choose to) and maybe Genia (who has been out of form for a while now). 8-10 first choice is stretching it a bit I think.


Sent from my iPhone

Agree. Hooker, Cooper and Palu are probably the only first choice players out. But having said that, players who would certainly be in the extended squad is still a significant loss. Imagine having To'omua, Pocock, Moore/TPN, Palu/Higgers coming off the bench.

A lot of people have blamed the bench for us losing the close games and I agree.

 

[Brumby Runner]

It's one thing to be 'showing signs of improvement' in the NRC, but another thing entirely to be almost MoTM in a Bledisloe.

Also considering he has never set the world on fire for the Wallabies, I wouldn't have expected it even if he was shredding the NRC to pieces.
.

I don't know why his, or anyone else's, NRC form should be downplayed. Christian is a proven Super player and worthy test player even if he hadn't been outstanding at that level before. NRC is the highest level of rugby currently outside of test matches in this country. If a proven quality player is showing improving form at the NRC then it is quite natural to expect they will be up for it when they return to the test team. I have no doubts at all that both Will Genia and Quade Cooper will be up to the task again when they return to the fold, and one or both might even go close to motm performances based on the sort of form they have shown in their last NRC games. On the other hand, a player like Will Skelton has shown nothing at NRC level to suggest he is regaining the form he showed in the Super comp and his first outings with the Wallabies.

 

[Brumby Runner]

How many years ago was that now?... Lol dags form has been lacking for as long as crudens form has. They are only in because the coach likes the combos, and as happened last week, to rest players.
Smith is faaaar better then dag!
Barrett is faaaar better the cruden!

Speaking as an outsider, I agree with these comparisons. But not so long ago Dagg was rated the best (or one of them) fullback going round until Ben Smith came along and showed he was better. Similarly with Cruden, he was clearly the second best No 10 to Carter in NZ rugby until Barratt was given his chance to show what he could do. Barratt is a standout and has shown he will be this good since he played in the U20s world cup three or four years ago, admittedly at No 15 then. NZ rugby is pretty damn lucky to have all of these great players - or is it more than luck?

 

[Train Without a Station]

Really?!? 8-10??. Moore, TPN (you can only play one if these guys at a time though), Pocock and at a stretch, Speight (totally untested at Test level as yet), QC (Quade Cooper) ( could have played but Link didn't choose to) and maybe Genia (who has been out of form for a while now). 8-10 first choice is stretching it a bit I think.


Sent from my iPhone

Moore, TPN, Sio, Palu, McCalman, To'omua are all first choice players who would have been in the 23 if they were fit.

Speight would be our first winger chosen right now based on the fact that he was always our top form winger and none of the alternatives have cemented their spots with form.

Cooper and Genia are underdone from injury lay offs and based on the fact that Cooper wasn't used, it's pretty likely both were only in the squad in case a player was unable to play due to injury.

Now if all these players were available (well not all in fact, but maybe Palu & McCalman in the case of Fardy. TPN, Sio and Moore in the case of Slipper, etc.), with significant game time under their belt, I could understand the logic in resting somebody like Hooper, Slipper, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Fardy or Phipps.

With the way the Wallaby squad is now, I wouldn't

 

[Bullrush]

Moore, TPN, Sio, Palu, McCalman, To'omua are all first choice players who would have been in the 23 if they were fit.

Speight would be our first winger chosen right now based on the fact that he was always our top form winger and none of the alternatives have cemented their spots with form.

Cooper and Genia are underdone from injury lay offs and based on the fact that Cooper wasn't used, it's pretty likely both were only in the squad in case a player was unable to play due to injury.

Now if all these players were available (well not all in fact, but maybe Palu & McCalman in the case of Fardy. TPN, Sio and Moore in the case of Slipper, etc.), with significant game time under their belt, I could understand the logic in resting somebody like Hooper, Slipper, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Fardy or Phipps.

With the way the Wallaby squad is now, I wouldn't

McCalman is a first-choice player?!? I don't remember him starting in any Tests in at least 5 yrs.

Palu - meh. Consistently average against SA & NZ and I don't think you lost anything with Higgers.

To'omua - again, average at Test level thus far and Lilo was one of your best on field.

Genia isn't just coming back from injury. His form has been fairly average and it's hard to say that he would have been first-choice even if available.

Speight - again, he is totally untested at this level and making him 'first-choice' says more about the Wallaby depth at winger rather than how good he is.

The Wallabies had a few unavailable but that the same as almost every team before every game. The ABs didn't have (for whatever reason):

Kaino
Woodcock
DC
Cruden
Nonu
Ben Smith

so it's much of a muchness really.


Sent from my iPhone

 

[Viking]

I think the point is, we would be massively stronger if our injured players weren't injured. Compared to the All Blacks, they probably would only be slightly more stronger.

Since we lack depth, injuries hurt us more then the All Blacks.

 

[Train Without a Station]

You do know what first choice 23 is is don't you? McCalman has been in every game day team he's been fit and available for.

Would Speight have been chosen of Horne or Tomane if fit? Yes. Then he's one of our first choice players.

Say what you want about To'omua's form, but our team has fallen apart the last 2 times he's been subbed out. Lilo's game is irrelevant because you cannot predict that when selecting the team and deciding to rest players.

If you're going to throw in Cruden, let's throw in Beale too. We'll ignore JOC (James O'Connor) as that was from last year.

And right now 2 former captains are not available with another 2 very experienced players unavailable and To'omua who has been a backline leader. Due to that I wouldn't rest a player in any of the positions we have players who need a rest, as we would be weakened too much there. Now if we had a second rower who had played 30 games this year, that would be a different story.

Much like I wouldn't have expected the All Blacks to rest a 10 on the weekend, as that's where they're injuries have hit hardest.

I could say oh Silivia Siliva, Tolu Latu, Heath Tessman, etc. are injured but that's irrelevant. They wouldn't make our 23.

 

[Viking]

With Fardy, Higgers, Palu all fit then McCalman probably wouldn't make the 23.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Well he has all season.

 

[Viking]

Well he has all season.

I mean now. At the start of this international season he was ahead of Higgers but not Palu. Then I think he was preferred over Palu, or was Palu injured?

I think he has moved down the peccing order after the Higgers performance and a fit Palu always seems to be in the mix.

 

[Braveheart81]

Palu has started every test he has been healthy for.

McCalman was preferred to Higginbotham as a starter but Higgers was generally preferred as the bench option this year.

 

[Bullrush]

You do know what first choice 23 is is don't you? McCalman has been in every game day team he's been fit and available for.

Would Speight have been chosen of Horne or Tomane if fit? Yes. Then he's one of our first choice players.

Say what you want about To'omua's form, but our team has fallen apart the last 2 times he's been subbed out. Lilo's game is irrelevant because you cannot predict that when selecting the team and deciding to rest players.

If you're going to throw in Cruden, let's throw in Beale too. We'll ignore JOC (James O'Connor) as that was from last year.

And right now 2 former captains are not available with another 2 very experienced players unavailable and To'omua who has been a backline leader. Due to that I wouldn't rest a player in any of the positions we have players who need a rest, as we would be weakened too much there. Now if we had a second rower who had played 30 games this year, that would be a different story.

Much like I wouldn't have expected the All Blacks to rest a 10 on the weekend, as that's where they're injuries have hit hardest.

I could say oh Silivia Siliva, Tolu Latu, Heath Tessman, etc. are injured but that's irrelevant. They wouldn't make our 23.

Mate, you're kidding yourself.

How many Test starts has McCalman had? That would probably be the best indicator of 'first choice'. But for the large majority of his Tests, someone else has been considered ahead of him or, alternatively, the first choice.

Speight has NEVER been picked first and while it may have been likely, there's no guarantee that he would have been for this game. And again, he hasn't played a single Test so to talk about about as a known quantity is just speculation or hoping and wishing.

To'omua was first choice but after Lilo's performance, is it still?? His hold on the position is hardly rock solid is it.

Cruden is included because he is still very much in the AB frame as evidenced by his selection in the EOYT. Not to mention he actually has been a first choice selection for most of the year. None of this can be said about Beale.

2 captains (I'm guessing Moore and Pocock) are big losses and I'll agree with you there.

Cooper is probably a loss so I'll give you that. Genia's form has been average so no real loss there especially with how Phipps has been playing.

I don't know why you bothered with that last group.....totally irrelevant.

I don't deny you miss a couple of players but 8-10 is just an exaggeration of the situation.


Sent from my iPhone

 

[KAOPointman]

I don't know why his, or anyone else's, NRC form should be downplayed. Christian is a proven Super player and worthy test player even if he hadn't been outstanding at that level before. NRC is the highest level of rugby currently outside of test matches in this country. If a proven quality player is showing improving form at the NRC then it is quite natural to expect they will be up for it when they return to the test team. I have no doubts at all that both Will Genia and Quade Cooper will be up to the task again when they return to the fold, and one or both might even go close to motm performances based on the sort of form they have shown in their last NRC games. On the other hand, a player like Will Skelton has shown nothing at NRC level to suggest he is regaining the form he showed in the Super comp and his first outings with the Wallabies.

I totally agree......I mean weren't people saying the same thing about cooper the same time last year.....yet his last wallaby game he was motm against wales I think. Plus didn't he earn motm in the third bledisloe last yearn the famous "silence the crowd" game?

 

[Pfitzy]

I don't know why his, or anyone else's, NRC form should be downplayed.

Indeed.

If it IS downplayed, one might be entitled to ask: what then, sirrah, is the fucking point of the NRC?

 

[USARugger]

I'm just so fucking happy Lilo played a really good test match and I want to see him build on it.

If Cheiks is bringing another 2nd-five system to the Wallabies then having Lilo firing going into the RWC will give us some serious 10/12 depth and he's a pretty nifty 15 in a pinch as well.

Been waiting way too long for him to have a test like that and couldn't be happier for the bloke or what his playing well means to the Wallabies

 

[Athilnaur]

I reckon Larkham will have been wondering why it took till now! Great news for Aussie rugby! Like Kuridrani a few tests earlier, something just seems to have clicked. Having highly effective centres will be a huge boost to our game, and reduce some of the load on the forwards in attack as well.