Wallabies have a drinking problem?

[Penguin]

Sorry to butt in page 8 with only a scant reading of the prior posts.

After enduring two years of this campaign for the coaching job I am less than impressed with this latest attempt as I have made every attempt to eat humble pie over improvements in the last 6 weeks.

However we are all missing some points here. Given the number of confused players it would appear to me that there is at least some confusion over the change in Tuesday night routine.

If there was a clear curfew in place how did 50% of the touring party get it wrong?

If the culture is so bad that strong action is required why was there a change in practice without any precautions in place to prevent it turning to custard?

Who is responsible for the culture being so bad? McKenzie has been in charge for a while and is certainly responsible for setting the standards on this tour.

If we need to establish principles I would have thought the time for action was Wednesday before the Ireland test. They all live in the same hotel, why was it so difficult to sort this out?

Waiting until next week when we play a weaker team is possibly the most piss weak thing I have seen in over 45 years of following the Wallabies.

I passionately support the Wallabies and was outraged by the undermining of the team by the sycophantic supporters of McKenzie. As I write these same fuckwits are now starting to tie this "problem" back to Deans. I just cannot believe I am going to write this; but I hope Scotland beat us on the weekend. The weak and gutless people running this game in this country need an urgent wake up call.

If I am wrong then no doubt the Wallabies will regroup, win the next 2 games and go on to bigger and better things in 2014.

If not then where will this end up?

Your username is apt in relation to this rant.

 

[GaffaCHinO]

It seems crystal clear to this mug punter sitting at home in Brisbane so I can't see how there can be any doubt in the players minds whatsoever.

well i guess that 15 players were all out to break the rules and the problem is alot worse than everyone really know.

Use Keyboard warriors are never wrong hey.

 

[Penguin]

well i guess that 15 players were all out to break the rules and the problem is alot worse than everyone really know.

Use Keyboard warriors are never wrong hey.

Well, I know from my own experience that the clock can go in fast motion after the witching hour & just one more drink. It's gotten me in trouble with my better half on more than one occasion. I'd say they pushed the limits & it didn't turnout well for them. No ambiguity, just poor judgement. Your last statement rings true for yourself to you know......

 

[GaffaCHinO]

Well, I know from my own experience that the clock can go in fast motion after the witching hour & just one more drink. It's gotten me in trouble with my better half on more than one occasion. I'd say they pushed the limits & it didn't turnout well for them. No ambiguity, just poor judgement. Your last statement rings true for yourself to you know..

Exactly that’s why I’m just trying to put another spin on the situation as i cant understand how 15 players all got it wrong and players like AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) with 90 games under his belt who as far as we know have never been in trouble now finds himself labelled a boozer and unprofessional it just doesn’t sit well with me.

But I guess I’m in the minority here and will leave it at that.

 

[Cat_A]

I don't think AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) was singled out until his family and friends publicly leapt to his support. Prior to that he was one of six players stood down, but since then he's come to represent the whole team. Unfair on him, but it was the well-meaning support which resulted in him being the lightning rod for criticism.

I think the actions of all of them were unprofessional and unwarranted. I'd like to change the title of this thread because no one's saying they have an alcohol problem, I'm saying they were idiots.

 

[GaffaCHinO]

I don't think AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) was singled out until his family and friends publicly leapt to his support. Prior to that he was one of six players stood down, but since then he's come to represent the whole team. Unfair on him, but it was the well-meaning support which resulted in him being the lightning rod for criticism.

I think the actions of all of them were unprofessional and unwarranted. I'd like to change the title of this thread because no one's saying they have an alcohol problem, I'm saying they were idiots.

Fine don’t make it about AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) make it about Robinson who has 50+ caps or TNP who has 45 test or Gill who is meant to be the next Reds Captain and one of the most mature and professional guys coming through I just cant and don’t see them going out on the piss mid week, along with 12 others who have broken the rules which from what they are saying weren’t in place.

All you need to do is look at the headlines in the media to see they have been labelled with an alcohol problem or for me to get into work this morning in Perth and get into a conversation with an AFL supported about how the wallabies are a bunch of drunks. Mud sticks.

 

[Slim 293]

It's all a conspiracy?

 

[Train Without a Station]

Anybody who cites this issue linked to players who no history to call them alcoholic or having a drinking problem is a moron.

It's an isolated incident of lack of professionalism expected of an elite athlete on a competition tour.

 

[Cat_A]

Gaf it sounds like you're arguing with people who aren't on this forum, via this forum. When I said 'no one' I was referring to the other people on this thread. I'm sorry if I've misunderstood you though.

The only people who have said the rules weren't in place were AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)'s mum, brother, and his good mate Drew Mitchell. Ewen and Pulver (who is in Ireland too) took 2 days to investigate this, but you (and others) seem to have placed more stock in the secondhand accounts of people associated with one player - none of these people were even in the same country at the time - to say that the rules were never in place, than those who were actually involved. Everyone else associated with this has been silent and by all indications has copped it sweet.

I don't think they went out deliberately to break the rules. I think they kicked on after dinner for 'just one more' and because they were hanging out with eachother (and I would assume getting cabs back to the hotel together) it's pretty darned easy to accumulate the 15 players out late really bloody quickly. A group of 8 and a couple of smaller groups can quickly end up at the same place - we all know how it happens. When everyone's in a group having a good time, again, we all know how easy it is to lose track of time and how much you've had to drink.

Getting carried away is understandable and easy to do, but at the same time I agree with Link that they aren't on a Contiki tour. The alarmist media coverage is shitting me to tears too, because in my view these guys made a stupid mistake that was unprofessional and deserved punishment.

That no one else has commented (even Quade) tells me that they accepted the penalty, which is ONE GAME for ONE BLOODY STUPID ACT.

I don't think I'm disagreeing with the substance of anything you're saying - it's not fair that AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) has been labelled by the media as he has - but I can see how easy it was for 15 players to take it all too far and I'm comfortable with the transparency shown.

In previous years these players would have probably been 'injured' or 'rested' this week. But because Ewen came forward and said what happened, here we are.

 

[TOCC]

So you have the Wallaby Captain, Wallaby Vice-Captain, 2 former Wallaby Captains and Brumbies Vice-Captain who is also the senior Wallaby forward who all managed to be home by the time required and sober, and then you have a collective group of others who stayed late and drank 'several drinks' and people are suggesting that their wasn't enough guidance as to what was expected if them..


I think it's silly to suggest that a lack of curfew is a license to stay out drinking until the early morning, it's apparent that many of the team understood the requirements which also happened to include the bulk of the leadership group and senior players. There actions are a reflection of their position within the squad and it's probably no coincidence that their position within the squad is a reflection of their personal professionalism.

 

[mudskipper]

You don't hate the guy yet refer to him as utterly useless?

It might be your opinion but perhaps you should put this particular hobby horse out to pasture for a while, give him some time to recover and have a change of scenery before you ride back into town with another swag full of vitriol for AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper).

time, he had 90 tests... has played better in recent games thou... I'll gvie him that... He'lll be back in the 13 soon against Wales as Tevita Kuridrani is out due to a dumb tackle...

Sorry I cant do the AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) man love thing... he should know better... I refer to as utterly useless as a senior team member after this account, as a leader... not as a player...

 

[cyclopath]

I don't think AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) was singled out until his family and friends publicly leapt to his support. Prior to that he was one of six players stood down, but since then he's come to represent the whole team. Unfair on him, but it was the well-meaning support which resulted in him being the lightning rod for criticism.

I think the actions of all of them were unprofessional and unwarranted. I'd like to change the title of this thread because no one's saying they have an alcohol problem, I'm saying they were idiots.

"Some Wallabies need to reassess their decision-making paradigm" just won't get the punters in, @Cat_A.

 

[mudskipper]

I though Georgina Robinson put it acutlly... Its not a Contiki Tour..... very funny but how true, these guys just arent taking it seriously... And each loss Mckenzie gets bagged out, can you imagine how he felt when he realised thats the commitment of the many in his squad... man he must have been pissed off...

Another point is how does Scotland feel now? I'm sure they would want to play or best...

Also did some of tehse guys play well because they knew they were waiting discpline and thought they might dodge it by a good game????
I wonder... Jeez Cat just got back in the squad and TPN...

 

[Penguin]

Pretty sure she was just paraphrasing Mackenzie there Mudskipper. But a good line nonetheless.

 

[BPC]

The only people who have said the rules weren't in place were AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)'s mum, brother, and his good mate Drew Mitchell. Ewen and Pulver (who is in Ireland too) took 2 days to investigate this, but you (and others) seem to have placed more stock in the secondhand accounts of people associated with one player - none of these people were even in the same country at the time - to say that the rules were never in place, than those who were actually involved. Everyone else associated with this has been silent and by all indications has copped it sweet.

Except that Ewen has not referred to rules but expectations. That is a weasel word when it comes to disciplining someone significantly for not meeting an "expectation" rather than an actual rule. A significant deviation from the expectation is one thing, like being photographed in a fast food joint at 4am, but there is a lot of grey area around the word expectation and what it means. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)'s supporters have raised some points that possibly put AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) in the grey area or on the margins. As others have pointed out, 15 players 'misunderstood' the expectation. It may be a case of collective stupidity, but it may equally have been an issue with how the expectation was expressed or conveyed.

I'm comfortable with the transparency shown. In previous years these players would have probably been 'injured' or 'rested' this week. But because Ewen came forward and said what happened, here we are.

I am not happy with the transparency. Ewen has divided the wrongdoers into three groups with a very general description of what was taken into account in punishment. What has come from AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)'s supporters suggests that his inclusion in the most punished group was only based on some of the factors Ewen apparently relied upon. If AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) drank far less than others in group one, why is he in the group? Did he get back later? If he got back at the same time but (allegedly) drank much less, why is he in that group? Is it because he was a starter? Robinson, TPN and Ryan weren't.

I think that there has been an illusion of transparency but little actual detail. I don't accept that Ewen has said what happened. My view is he should have given no reasons (these players were punished to varying degrees because of breaches of team protocol/expectations and nothing else) or full reasons. Giving a bunch of ill-defined categories and references to expectations rather than rules is, in my considered opinion, piss-weak. Hopefully he explained it to the players more clearly.

 

[Slim 293]

I'm pretty sure that "don't shit on the blarney stone" isn't an official rule, but one would be expected not to partake in such practice.........

 

[Cat_A]

I agree BPC that he would've been better off giving no reasons, but I think we would've still been on these forums complaining about the lack of transparency. I see that RUPA are investigating concerns about there being so much detail released, so there really is no amount of information that will satisfy anyone. I think the lack of public dissent from players within the squad suggests that they are very clear on the expectations. Especially going forward

I'll have to agree to disagree about the expectations - I can't see how anyone thought going out on the piss when there were two games in 7 days was A-OK. I 'expect' that adults, especially adults who have been named in a squad to play a Test match only days later, can make appropriate decisions, and exhibit common sense and self-control.

As to why AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) was punished in a group with people who (allegedly) drank less more (sorry - typo) than he did, this is something I think only he or Link can answer, but I can't see a man who recently dropped his vice captain to the bench and stripped an underperforming player of the Wallaby captaincy, feeling like he needed to make a public example of a player in this way.

There would be a reason, and it may have been a reason that Adam chose not to share with his mother. And there are a lot of things I don't tell my mother. Thankfully my mother doesn't get asked about my actions on the radio though.

 

[Slim 293]

Sorry about posting so much of the article, but it reveals some more details:

Ewen McKenzie will not be compromising his standards.

Like most nights out in Dublin, it started well. A group of seven players, including the Wallabies captain, the Waratahs captain and a 90-Test veteran back, went to Dublin's oldest pub, the Brazen Head, for a drink the night before their day off.

A photograph posted on the pub's Facebook page shows the group posing happily with Gerry the bartender. ''Some of the Australian rugby team dropped in for a drink tonight. Gerry in the shirt and tie is not one of them … obviously,'' the caption reads. The time stamp puts the post at 7.45pm last Tuesday, before it all went pear-shaped.

Two of the players pictured, Israel Folau and Ben Mowen, went back to the team hotel before midnight. The others - Nick Phipps, Nic White, Bernard Foley, Dave Dennis and Adam Ashley-Cooper - stayed out. It is unclear what happened after that. It is believed another group of players dropped into the Old Stand Pub in Exchequer Street, a rugby pub named after a long-gone stand at the now-demolished Lansdowne Road stadium. At some point, members of the various groups met up and sampled more of Dublin's nightlife. It is understood the players who were reprimanded verbally were in very soon after midnight, the written warnings were in before 3am and the suspended players came home later than that. But by the following Monday, five in that innocuous photograph were under a cloud.

Ashley-Cooper was suspended; Dennis, Foley and Phipps had written warnings on their files, and White had been reprimanded in person by Ewen McKenzie. From the other groups, a further five players were stood down, two more were issued with written sanctions and three more with verbal warnings.

But for the so-called ''Dublin six'', the only thing worse than missing this weekend's Test match would have been the look in McKenzie's eyes as he made the news public. The stoic Wallabies coach, whose concession to emotion is generally limited to a grunted laugh or twisted grin, was visibly upset in Edinburgh on Monday. There was genuine disbelief, and palpable frustration, that the inroads the team was making on and off the field had been mocked by some of his most senior players with a drunken night out in Dublin. ''This is not a proud moment at all, not at all,'' McKenzie said. ''I am actually really disappointed, but I'll deal with it and get on with it.''

After turning a bitter defeat to England into a victory over Italy, the team had taken a singular focus into last week's preparation in pursuit of back-to-back wins. It trained at ''full noise'' on Tuesday before heading out for dinner in small groups. The six all knew they were playing in Saturday's Test against Ireland.

Ashley-Cooper had been the team's most consistent performer for years and one of its most meticulous athletes when it came to preparation each week. Benn Robinson was a decorated Test prop and had been working hard to reclaim his spot in the starting team after being benched in favour of James Slipper when McKenzie took over. Tatafu Polota-Nau, once considered the Wallabies' best hooker, was on the verge of playing his first Test in 12 months when he made the decision to stay out. Nick Cummins had the world at his feet after beating Joe Tomane to a starting spot for all three Tests on tour, while Liam Gill and Paddy Ryan, fringe players this year, had just been handed their first playing opportunities in months. At some point last Tuesday night, on the streets of grimy Dublin, they lost sight of the bigger picture. McKenzie vehemently denied suggestions he could have fined the players instead or, in light of the rousing 32-15 victory, let it go completely. ''If it doesn't reach the surface of the day and no one ever knows about it, nothing changes, people just go on,'' he said.

*snip*

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union ... z2l87Qiysz

 

[Slim 293]

Mowen and Izzy obviously did the right thing........

 

[Hawko]

Two of the players pictured, Israel Folau and Ben Mowen, went back to the team hotel before midnight. The others - Nick Phipps, Nic White, Bernard Foley, Dave Dennis and Adam Ashley-Cooper - stayed out. It is unclear what happened after that. It is believed another group of players dropped into the Old Stand Pub in Exchequer Street, a rugby pub named after a long-gone stand at the now-demolished Lansdowne Road stadium. At some point, members of the various groups met up and sampled more of Dublin's nightlife. It is understood the players who were reprimanded verbally were in very soon after midnight, the written warnings were in before 3am and the suspended players came home later than that. But by the following Monday, five in that innocuous photograph were under a cloud.

Now it becomes clearer (and I am getting shittier with the players). I don't care if they were only drinking mineral water, being out till 3am is totally unprofessional. And I bet some were on something slightly stronger. That lot were lucky to get only a written warning. I have no problems whatsoever with the six getting suspended. Being out till after 3am is totally irresponsible, and that lack of rest combined with any alcohol intake is going to impact on recovery, particularly after a very hard full contact Tuesday session. Unless I miss my mark the Thursday performance at training would have been less than 100%.