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Wallabies 31 Man Squad

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RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
I would be fine with that line of thinking, had the players he's picked to do those jobs actually did those jobs......

The style he wants to play didn't work in the world cup and you'd barely call it a success last year. We scrapped home in a number of games by a bee's dick and in some cases through individual brilliance, not through a better game plan that was executed.

For me, that's a key insight and a truth of many of the Deans-coached wins.

We have some terrifically talented players in Australia, and most at the elite level are powered by a genuine Aussie-pride rooted passion to work hard when the chips are down, and win games and trophies. That talent-aggression-passion foundation can survive quite a degree of managerial mis-allocation and misuse. I believe the syndrome of high talent and 'individual brilliance' overcoming coaching oddities and deficiencies has much history in Australian rugby and I essentially believe a large quantum of recent Wallaby wins are in this broad category.

I think of, for example, E Jones' unspectacular coaching record and uninspiring coaching style, and yet the Wallabies of 2003 did wonderfully well to get into the RWC Final that year. I think of the Hickey-coached Waratahs - it's more obvious than ever that he did not extract the consistent best outcomes or attractive playing styles from, for example, the 2011 Tahs but they still got into the final 6 that year and the year before, scraping along unglamorously, but winning enough to get there. The Tahs have and have had some really wonderful players, it was the sick culture of the NSW and Tahs RU as recently combined with a kind of strangling, stats-driven, low-risk coaching method that held them back for so long. So often in the professional era, intrinsic Australian rugby talent has been ruined or at best held back as our managerial and coaching elites remained as rank amateurs at core but gained for themselves new financial rewards, and thus let our national or regional talent pool down, and badly. NZ and the NZ RU did not make these fatally unbalanced transitions, they knew they had to professionalise their management and coaching resources in parallel with that of their players and this better standard of total systemic skill is one of the major reasons a country of 4+m people can dominate a world sport.

We've had elements of evidence of good national coaching in recent years. For example, the excellent work of P Blake on the Wallabies defence from late 2010 and through 2011 laid a down a very good platform of defensive skill for the 2012 Wallabies. IMO a return to the historically high standard of Wallaby defence (which had drifted markedly downwards in the 2009-10 period) was a bedrock of the very narrow 2012 Wales wins, the draw with the ABs at Suncorp, etc. Equally, there were glimpses of evidence that Totality Tony and Blades may be bringing greater accuracy and intensity to our breakdown work and in the scrum, not always, but often enough to give a bit of confidence that these new support coaches were adding some tangible value. It was impressive just how much talent we had when the 2012 rookies and second and third Wallaby choices stood up and often delivered in Tests. In this, we could see that the 'oh, we have huge problems with depth' excuse might just be a myth, and the problems with our whole rugby system might lie elsewhere.

But in none of the 2012 wins did we see solid or sustained evidence of, for example, well-worked attacking game plans, well-rehearsed ensemble tries off set-piece or any great semblance of holistic coaching excellence that generated broad fan excitement or a real sense that 'wow, the Wallabies are back, let's go back and see them again and again'. (And FFS don't tell me that can't be done any more: in a short period, it was achieved at the modern Reds, and it's gradually re-emerging at the 2013 Tahs.) The fact that only two home Tests sold out in 2012 reflected that, and what had gone before. Our best work as a team last year was probably the win over England. In my view, a la the E Jones and Hickeys, it's core talent and attitude that is fundamentally getting us through series and providing enough scrappy wins to avoid humiliation or sequential disasters.

FWIW, I think this is just what will happen in the BIL series. We will possess greater aggregate athletic and rugby skill, yet we will have flawed game plans, odd untried combinations, and little back line ingenuity, and the former's value will just exceed the defects of the latter, and we will win at least one Test as a direct result. History will confirm if this is enough to win two, but it just might be as our men will be hugely motivated as will the $200 per average ticket paying crowds. The nation will like the series win if so, but not a great number of new fans will be back in 2014.

Some here argue that this is Test rugby, and this is enough, but it's not because my sense is that the majority of us have this angry, very angry, sense that our national rugby talent and potential is somehow chronically separated from its fulfilment and that, as a rugby nation, we are are capable of far more than we are realising. Australians have never liked or accepted that in our big sports, and long may that spirit run, it's a kind of cultural asset that I'm proud of.
 

madflyhalf

Stan Wickham (3)
Means that he hopes to be in the starting 23. In the context he's used it, a gig means a start

Yeah I understand almost anything of the video and the meaning of his speech ("going off like a cut snake" is gold :D ), I'm pretty confident in english, but I just can't catch the words he said in the end.
 

lewisr

Bill McLean (32)
RedsHappy Absolutely brilliant post and right on the money. Very good piece of writing too! Issue is that I think most people here agree with you... Preaching to the choir. Maybe you should email that to one of the publishers on here so they can slap it up on the front page! haha
 

BDA

Jim Lenehan (48)
Nice post RedsHappy. Just on your comment regarding the Lions Series failing to attract many new fans, I actually think the best thing the ARU could have done to promote the series to
casual fans or fans from other codes was to select Folau. I think there''ll be a lot of rugby league fans tuning in to see him play for the wallabies. Obviously, as you point out, there is a further element needed to keep these fans' interest after the series is over, an element which might not be present in terms of the Wallabies' style of play, but it at least has the potential to be positive
 

ChargerWA

Mark Loane (55)
I've though about it a lot and the only justification I can make for the inclusion of Timani is how effectively he locks down the scrum. His line out contribution is limited, he has rocks for hands and doesn't dominate the contact like he should. But he is like an extra man at scrum time for the lucky prop in front of him.

If Deans selects him, he needs to pack at TH lock. Considering Deans is likely to put Alexander at TH, I support his inclusion on this fact alone.
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
I've though about it a lot and the only justification I can make for the inclusion of Timani is how effectively he locks down the scrum. His line out contribution is limited, he has rocks for hands and doesn't dominate the contact like he should. But he is like an extra man at scrum time for the lucky prop in front of him.

If Deans selects him, he needs to pack at TH lock. Considering Deans is likely to put Alexander at TH, I support his inclusion on this fact alone.


Charger I mostly agree, but we saw some signs last season that he has it in him to hurt blokes in contact, which is what you want from a guy of his size and position. Some of his hits in defence and his scrummaging ability made me take notice. If only he could catch the ball he'd be a frightening prospect for opposition coaches.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
I don't think we need to pick a pack that 'hurts' the opposition. We need to pick guys that will work hard in defense and at the ruck in attack and hunt as a pack. We should just look to be even at set piece but dominate the breakdown then leverage that to play an up tempo game.

We should be picking these units to do that:

Robbo, Alexander
Moore
Slipper
Horwill, Douglas, MMM
Mowen, Higgers, Palu
Gill, Hooper

Robbie mostly has it right, but there are a few players don't fit the mould:

- Timani, Simmons, Dennis

We need to bring in MMM (if fit) and Douglas. I'd even consider McCalman or Quirk ahead of Dennis because we need a tackling and ruck clearing machine.

Also, I don't think we can have Paiu and Higgers on the field at the same time, because it throws the balance out.

I we managed to get the lions moving around through forwards running off Genia and quick ruck ball for the backs I would seriously consider bringing Gill on the same time as Hooper in the second half.

This series will be won or lost at the ruck. I have concerns that Robbie won't pick a team that is able to carry this out.
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
I don't think we need to pick a pack that 'hurts' the opposition. We need to pick guys that will work hard in defense and at the ruck in attack and hunt as a pack. We should just look to be even at set piece but dominate the breakdown then leverage that to play an up tempo game.


Not the whole pack, but I'm firmly of the belief that you need one or two blokes who have real mongrel. Not filthy or anything like that, just hard. Rugby is a game of collisions and when you win those collisions you often win the game. Why do we like MMM so much this year? He's got mongrel and knocks blokes over. I think Timani has the potential to be the same. I used to be a massive doubter, but last year (like I said) I saw something that made me think he could take that next step.

At the lock position I'm of the same mind as our old mate Bakkies, who said you need an athlete and a rock shifter in the second row. For the longest time I've felt we've lacked the rock shifter.

EDIT: An example of the kind of thing I'm talking about was the commitment shown by the Sydney Uni pack against Souths last weekend. They were laying the hurt on and did so for the full 80. I watched in awe at how consistently they drove a very good Souths pack backwards in contact.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
The best way to win the 'collision' is by winning the breakdown. Speed, agility and accuracy as well as mongrel. The reds don't really have anyone that 'hurts' people (Samo the only one really with Horwill the next closest), but the have barely lost the forward battle this year. They do this via support for the ball carrier and effective clear out at the breakdown. They both tackle and clear out low. They support Genia with multiple runners and angled running lines.

It doesn't matter how big you are if you have static ball.
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
The best way to win the 'collision' is by winning the breakdown. Speed, agility and accuracy as well as mongrel. The reds don't really have anyone that 'hurts' people (Samo the only one really with Horwill the next closest), but the have barely lost the forward battle this year. They do this via support for the ball carrier and effective clear out at the breakdown. They both tackle and clear out low. They support Genia with multiple runners and angled running lines.

It doesn't matter how big you are if you have static ball.

No doubt, agree with you 100% and I also agree about body height etc at the breakdown. I do think you might sell that Reds pack a but short though. Horwill muscles up nicely for mine, he's no wallflower. A couple of the back rowers they've used are pretty useful in that regard too. There's also no lack of commitment from either of the Fingers in contact either (yes, I know one of them is a back).
 

Ash

Michael Lynagh (62)
Sorry guys I'm Italian and I really don't catch the very last quote of the Honey Badger, min 3:08 after "hopefully get a gig".

Can someone please help me and transcript that quote??

I don't want to miss any HB's interview to come!! :D

He said:

Honey Badger said:
You can't count your chickens before they hatch.

I had to listen to it twice to pick it, he mumbled it.
 

madflyhalf

Stan Wickham (3)
Not the whole pack, but I'm firmly of the belief that you need one or two blokes who have real mongrel. Not filthy or anything like that, just hard. Rugby is a game of collisions and when you win those collisions you often win the game. Why do we like MMM so much this year? He's got mongrel and knocks blokes over. I think Timani has the potential to be the same. I used to be a massive doubter, but last year (like I said) I saw something that made me think he could take that next step.

At the lock position I'm of the same mind as our old mate Bakkies, who said you need an athlete and a rock shifter in the second row. For the longest time I've felt we've lacked the rock shifter.

EDIT: An example of the kind of thing I'm talking about was the commitment shown by the Sydney Uni pack against Souths last weekend. They were laying the hurt on and did so for the full 80. I watched in awe at how consistently they drove a very good Souths pack backwards in contact.

This!

IMO MMM in the former game of the season was above than Higginbotham too. For too many years the Wallabies have been let down by lack of phisicality, at least until 2010, and in some other recent matches too.
You can't afford a test level rugby with your n.6 or your 8-man seagulling on the touchline, and 2 or three backs throwing themselves at the ruck without any impact.

That's why Spies is not a test 8, that's why Picamoles and Read are the best n.8 in world rugby: because they play like a n.8 should do.
Look at the work Stephen Ferris uses (used) to do: he just dismantled any single ball carrier of the opposite team. He's been unlucky with his knee, but he could have been the best blindside flanker in the history of the game.
Alessandro Zanni is the one, now, IMO. The best blindside flanker in world rugby, the best player Italy have.

And in the 2nd row, Bakkies Botha, Brad Thorn, POC, Bradley Davies are the best recent examples. And Dan Vickerman too!
They are all dark knight, you don't see them often on the pitch, but you can feel they're there, and of course you feel it when they aren't!


The Wallabies must have at least 4 blokes in the starting XV that do this kind of work, because in this way they beat South Africa in the Republic in 2011 under a heavy rain and strong wind, because they beat them again at the RWC, playing, advancing and tackling madly.
The biggest physical effort I've ever seen by the Wallabies were those 2 matches, especially in the first one (Tri-Nations series), when in the first 25 minutes they made a statement: we're gonna beat you up front. And every single tackle was hard and winning.


Palu, Horwill and Moore does this, but they need at least another one, Higginbotham if he can tight his game; Timani showed big improvements last year with his workrate and mongrel, and started to win many more impacts.

But IMO if playing like in the first matches of the SuperXV, McMeniman could be a huge surprise in the starting XV as blindside flanker.

Plus the Honey Badger.
If everyone in the team has his mongrel and 1% of his passion, this Lions team would be blowed away in 120 minutes.
 

Joe Blow

John Hipwell (52)
Douglas has a bit of mongrel in him as well and just does not stop.
Timani can be moved to 6 late in the game at a pinch and Kimlin is another 5-6 that could have been considered if MMM was not available.

We really do need to meet the BILs head on in the forwards to have a chance of winning this series.
 

qwerty51

Stirling Mortlock (74)
I've though about it a lot and the only justification I can make for the inclusion of Timani is how effectively he locks down the scrum. His line out contribution is limited, he has rocks for hands and doesn't dominate the contact like he should. But he is like an extra man at scrum time for the lucky prop in front of him.

If Deans selects him, he needs to pack at TH lock. Considering Deans is likely to put Alexander at TH, I support his inclusion on this fact alone.

Scrum and maul work. Although I rate Douglas better at maul defending he is better than Simmons and Pyle at it.

Also, I don't think we can have Paiu and Higgers on the field at the same time, because it throws the balance out.

In what way? Higgers in the ball runner and Palu is a defensive workhorse (yes that's right, he topped the tackle count for the Welsh series).
 

No4918

John Hipwell (52)
Is that Timani or Douglas you rate over Simmons & Pyle at maul defence? Hopefully the latter.

Timani did start showing signs of improvement on EOYT, certainly looked better than any time so far this season. Maybe Dingo has the secret to getting him fired up. He really needs to get his body height under control if hitting up at 12 though. Hooper or Gill & JOC (James O'Connor) will be the first into help and will be at a big weight and height disadvantage.
 

Pfitzy

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Timani could be sooooooo much better if he stopped stopping all the time. Both he and Kepu spend too much time sucking in the big ones because they don't keep moving - O2 saturation, aerobic peak and all that sciencey shite. Neither are hitting enough rucks compared to their whitey counterparts
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
Nice post RedsHappy. Just on your comment regarding the Lions Series failing to attract many new fans, I actually think the best thing the ARU could have done to promote the series to
casual fans or fans from other codes was to select Folau. I think there''ll be a lot of rugby league fans tuning in to see him play for the wallabies. Obviously, as you point out, there is a further element needed to keep these fans' interest after the series is over, an element which might not be present in terms of the Wallabies' style of play, but it at least has the potential to be positive

A tried and tested tactic BDA that has been tried and failed in the past, on multiple times. This is short term development activity without any real effort being put in from the ARU and any real long term vision from/for the Wallabies.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
The huge problem with Timani is the fact that his selection compromises the first phase possession from the lineout. Regardless of whether he adds as much to the scrum over the other options that some seem to think, there are far fewer scrums in the game that there are lineouts. The Wallabies will at best have two genuine jumpers running on if Timani is selected and here I am assuming that Higgers or Mowen will start. As Scott Allen said in the Podcast the Wallabies will be running 5 man lineouts and they will be under huge pressure as even with the reduced numbers I expect the Lions will compete heavily with the Wallabies such I have serious doubts they will be dominant on their own ball let, to the extent they anything they get may well come from 2 and will be under heavy pressure. Thus when Timani get the ball for his "hit up" at 12 (because Deans says tries cannot be scored from 1st phase) he will be tackled at least 5 metres behind the gain line if not held up.

As for pressuring the Lions Lineout forget it, they have 5 genuine jumpers in what I expect to see in their starting pack, and with the mauling skills I expect any Lions lineout in the 22 could well result in points to the Lions.

Here the likely team the Wallabies will field plays right into the Lions hands again with Barnes most likely the starting 15, he has a average kick in distance and execution, Ioane pretty much unable to kick and Folau a largely unknown quantity with regard to kicking, I would be expecting the Lions to be playing for the corners quite often.
 

lewisr

Bill McLean (32)
A tried and tested tactic BDA that has been tried and failed in the past, on multiple times. This is short term development activity without any real effort being put in from the ARU and any real long term vision from/for the Wallabies.

It may not result in long term interest from borderline fans but you can hardly call it bad for Rugby Union, can you? He generates interest in the sport which is what we need. However, suggesting that the ARU deserve all the credit for the 'master stroke' that has been the signing of Izzy is over the top. He will last, at most, till 2015 for the World Cup and/ or 7s and will then leave for a bigger pay packet and after that, I highly doubt he will leave much of a legacy for union itself.

I see more value in generating a new opinion of the sport that combats what is described as "League Simplicity" and the repetitive nature of our counterparts in NRL. I think if people were able to relate to the sport through entertaining backs and brutal hits from our forwards with less of the technical stuff (on a consistent basis, not just in Super rugby), then that would see long term benefits. Pulver has identified this and hopefulyl he sticks to his words.

Good luck to him, John O'Neill was a quick fix in 2006 and Pulver has inherited some issues no doubt (yes of course he will hype them up).
 
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