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Wallabies 31 Man Squad

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Cassius88

Sydney Middleton (9)
Okay, I just had to throw my 2 cents in here about McCabe, and as you can tell from my DP, I'm talking through slightly rose-tinted glasses.

Firstly, some people use the fact that he doesn't have a kicking/passing game as a negative, and that's irrelevant because he's been selected as a hard-running 12, not a second 5/8. I don't want to get into the argument of having a ball-playing 12 versus a running 12 (I prefer the latter), but when Deans selected Pat at inside centre he would have specifically told him what he wanted from him, and positional kicking/long passes wouldn't have featured once.

The people that say he doesn't have enough footwork have obviously missed the point as well. Deans doesn't want him to be dancing around looking for gaps, he wants him running straight at his opposite number and getting over the advantage line, which he does bloody well. The value of front-foot ball on your second phase cannot be overstated. If you watch Pat for a whole game, his leg drive in contact is incredible which means that his yards after contact are second to none.

As for people saying he's too small to be in the enforcer role, I think his body of work speaks for itself. We don't have any Tuilagis or Rangers in Australia, and I think his heart more than makes up for his lack of size. Personally, with all the jumped-up divas in Australian rugby these days, I'd much prefer to have someone prepared to cripple himself for the gold jersey over someone who's just on the field waiting for his next endorsement to come through.

The Horne vs McCabe argument is a good one. I have never liked Horne as a player but I think he has really stood out this year as having improved his contact work and his off-loading has been good as well. The thing is, so has Pat. In the very limited game time he has had this year he has had some really nice offloads, one of which set Sio up for a try.

As far as this tour is concerned, I really don't think Pat has played enough minutes to be starting, not to mention the fact that Lilo has been great. As I said, I don't like having a ball-playing 12 (between your 9, 10 and 15 you should have all the kicking/flair that you need), but if that's what Deans wants then he can't look past Lilo. However, I would love to see Pat on the bench as he's a great asset to have to seal up the midfield once the starting players have tired a bit and there are some holes opening up.
 

Cosmo Jones

Allen Oxlade (6)
In Australia.

In Wales replace Pocock with Warbuton. In SA replace Pocock with Brussow. In Ireland replace Pocock with SOB. In England replace Pocock with. Actually I'm certain the English would agree. They constantly have 6's playing their just because they are captain (Robshaw & Moody) and haven't had a quality 7 since Neil Back.

Before Pocock was injured last season we were all discussing his lack of impact. Why? Because teams knew what to expect from him and were targetting him, holding him down at the rucks rucks, etc. and he had not developed other areas of his game to compensate.

People say he's injured and we forget about him? I think a lot of people are looking back through rose coloured glasses. Since the SA Quarter Final he hasn't been able to make the same impact when he has been playing.

Hooper came on the scene coming 2nd (Could be wrong with that) for pilfers in Super Rugby. That leads me to believe he is adequate at the breakdown. From here is has developed an incredible running game. If he can lift his tackle completion rate (Which is not that low. funnily enough you will have a decent number of missed tackles when you also make the most tackles even if you are tackling at 90+%) he will be superior player to Pocock.

Sure right now (well not right now, he's injured), start of 2013 anyway, Pocock is the better openside flanker. However I believe the gulf between the two is much less than Pocock was behind Smith when Deans was happy to kick Smith to the kerb. The rate Hooper is developing it likely won't be long before he eclipses Pocock.

Im sorry but that is just straight out wrong. He had a great start to the season and there was much more talk about his potential in the 2013 season than there was about his supposed 'lack of impact' as your claim. They are simply different players with different games. Yes i agree, Hoopers running game is probably more explosive than Pocock's, but Pococks work at the breakdown is unparalleled. Plus he is a hugely respected played with great leadership qualities as Mowen stated “He’s pretty much your perfect human in terms of preparation and all-round bloke... That huge amount of leadership he brings with him has really benefited our squad.” I wish they could both play together. That would be truly awesome.

“Pocock’s probably the best in the world at securing the ball at the breakdown,” Mowen said.
 

Bowside

Peter Johnson (47)
Firstly, some people use the fact that he doesn't have a kicking/passing game as a negative, and that's irrelevant because he's been selected as a hard-running 12, not a second 5/8. I don't want to get into the argument of having a ball-playing 12 versus a running 12 (I prefer the latter), but when Deans selected Pat at inside centre he would have specifically told him what he wanted from him, and positional kicking/long passes wouldn't have featured once.

The people that say he doesn't have enough footwork have obviously missed the point as well. Deans doesn't want him to be dancing around looking for gaps, he wants him running straight at his opposite number and getting over the advantage line, which he does bloody well. The value of front-foot ball on your second phase cannot be overstated. If you watch Pat for a whole game, his leg drive in contact is incredible which means that his yards after contact are second to none.

As for people saying he's too small to be in the enforcer role, I think his body of work speaks for itself. We don't have any Tuilagis or Rangers in Australia, and I think his heart more than makes up for his lack of size. Personally, with all the jumped-up divas in Australian rugby these days, I'd much prefer to have someone prepared to cripple himself for the gold jersey over someone who's just on the field waiting for his next endorsement to come through.

The problem with McCabe is that he is selected to do one thing, the opposition know that, and as such they can defend against it easily. Fast front foot ball is invaluable, but he often wasn't getting fast front foot ball because all the opposition defence had to do to nullify him was hit him early and wrestle him in the tackle a bit.

All of top modern hard-running 12's like Nonu, SBW and Roberts (and to a lesser extent Tuilagi, Fofana and de Villiers), can:

A) throw a long pass at speed both ways.
B) Use their footwork to elude defenders in the tight.

This gives them options when taking the ball to the line, which makes their runs more effective, which is why they made more metres than McCabe did.

McCabe had no options because he wasn't suited to playing the position.
 

Cassius88

Sydney Middleton (9)
The problem with McCabe is that he is selected to do one thing, the opposition know that, and as such they can defend against it easily. Fast front foot ball is invaluable, but he often wasn't getting fast front foot ball because all the opposition defence had to do to nullify him was hit him early and wrestle him in the tackle a bit.

All of top modern hard-running 12's like Nonu, SBW and Roberts (and to a lesser extent Tuilagi, Fofana and de Villiers), can:

A) throw a long pass at speed both ways.
B) Use their footwork to elude defenders in the tight.

This gives them options when taking the ball to the line, which makes their runs more effective, which is why they made more metres than McCabe did.

McCabe had no options because he wasn't suited to playing the position.

Part of my post was stating that we don't have the quality of hard-running 12s that other nations do...so to then use examples of other nations' hard-running 12s to refute my point is a bit redundant. Even so, I'll go through your list: - Nonu: in his prime was a wrecking ball, but each time Pat has played him I think he has gotten the better of Nonu in attack and defence. Nonu is now well past his prime and his last few outings for the Highlanders have been embarrassing.
- SBW: a freak of nature. Not really fair to compare anyone to him.
- Roberts: I admit I haven't seen much of him but he doesn't appear to pass/step much at all.
- Tuilagi: have never seen him pass a ball. An extremely destructive runner who has never had to/needed to step in his life.
- Fofana: really haven't seen enough French rugby to comment.
- de Villiers: similar to Nonu. A great player who is now past his prime and has been bested by McCabe each time they've played each other.

McCabe was extremely well nullified in their pool match against Ireland and I think that's what most people remember about him. Outside that game he really hasn't had the problem of being held up like that.

As for throwing long passes both ways, most of the Wallabies backs can't do that, let alone their crash-ball number 12. There seems to be a real problem in Australian rugby with ball skills. Most Kiwi props can throw a better pass than Australian centres/wingers.

At the end of the day, if Deans wants to go with a second 5/8 then that's fine, but if he absolutely has to have a ball-running 12, who would you have there instead of McCabe?
 

GaffaCHinO

Peter Sullivan (51)
Well there's no point talking about the Lions tour then, as they won't be here next year..
There are better 12s in the country that mccabe it just crazy how he can even be considered for the wallabies 12. Lilo horne taps godwin barnes all better than mccabe an all not injured.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk 2
 

Hell West & Crooked

Alex Ross (28)
There are better 12s in the country that mccabe it just crazy how he can even be considered for the wallabies 12. Lilo horne taps godwin barnes all better than mccabe an all not injured.

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Just In! "Different Rugby Coaches tend to choose different Players"!
I am sure its some kind of conspiracy.
 

lewisr

Bill McLean (32)
Just In! "Different Rugby Coaches tend to choose different Players"!
I am sure its some kind of conspiracy.


Yes. But good coaches choose the the better players. We have a number of inside centres that offer a lot more than McCabe does so bloody well choose them.

Just because he is clearly one of the most determined people on the park DOES NOT justify selection. If there are players that can perform better, you choose them regardless of who is more willing to bash themselves to injury. Frankly, you need some concern for your own safety if you want to play consistently at the top level.
 

Hell West & Crooked

Alex Ross (28)
Yes. But good coaches choose the the better players. We have a number of inside centres that offer a lot more than McCabe does so bloody well choose them.

Just because he is clearly one of the most determined people on the park DOES NOT justify selection. If there are players that can perform better, you choose them regardless of who is more willing to bash themselves to injury. Frankly, you need some concern for your own safety if you want to play consistently at the top level.

I am no fan of Deans (any more) - but as an earlier poster said - he is choosing this one player to do a particular job... a different job - and he might choose a different player... FFS can we let him pick his bloody team, first?
 

Hell West & Crooked

Alex Ross (28)
How do you justify Gill leapfrogging Hooper?
Hooper has excelled in the test arena,Gill has been competent.
Gills form would have to be lengths ahead of Hooper this year to get promoted above him.
It hasn't been.

Bottom line is we need them both - in all 3 tests... and Smithy too if he comes good during the series.
 

Athilnaur

Arch Winning (36)
Can we all get over this pointless MacCabe argument and talk about something that matters eg. that thing called the Lions tour? Who would everyone like to see in the forwards 1-8?

There is a very real prospect McCabe will be one of the 6. It is even more likely Deans will want a direct 12 rather than a playmaker.

Many on this forum prefer 2nd 5/8 style players (some days I wonder if I am the only one on this site that prefers direct 12s), but the fact remains both styles have merit and McCabe is a proven player for us within the direct play context.

Very topical I'd have thought.
 

Grandmaster Flash

Johnnie Wallace (23)
Can I start up the Pocock argument again?

I think Pocock's running/attack game has been pretty underrated in this ridiculous discussion. He nearly always makes metres in close due to his strength and has pretty good hands for such an overgrown hulk.

Watch the lead-up to JOC (James O'Connor)'s matchwinning try in Honkers. It is Pocock who palms off Kaino to set up the quick ball for the final phase.
 

lewisr

Bill McLean (32)
How do you justify Gill leapfrogging Hooper?
Hooper has excelled in the test arena,Gill has been competent.
Gills form would have to be lengths ahead of Hooper this year to get promoted above him.
It hasn't been.


I think he is a more traditional 7 with better pilfering ability that will come in handy against the Lions. I also think that Deans will be playing a slower more structured game plan that suits a player like Liam.

Hooper is brilliant, don't get me wrong, but his running game would be used best when the Brits are tired. On top of this, I still think that the running game of a 7 in broken play, although extremely beneficial, is not the primary role of an openside. We have the back to do that so I would prefer to have an effective pilferer on the field. I have no doubts the Gill would rise to the occasion as well. He is an extremely composed player and person and I would put serious money on him being a future Wallaby captain.

Like has been previously mentioned, we need both of them - this is not a question of whether one is better than the other for me. I just think Gill would be the better option to tire them out and then Hoops can come on at tear them to shreads.
 
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