Wallabies 2023

[Rebel man]

By no means do I think the season/RWC is a write off from one result but to some extent it looks like the writing is on the wall.

Through a combination of injuries (let’s call them unavoidable; arguable) and the constant changing of international eligibility (Japan players only in TRC, Euro players only in Spring) we are seeing a team that has essentially wasted ~30 games since the last WC

They now have 4-5 to magically gel which is impossible. The best teams are those with strong cohesion especially in the technical roles; 9-10 axis and 2-4-5 especially. And have been honing that for 3.5 years. Australia has massive question marks over multiple key positions; again...

It feels a bit inevitable that Australia are going to be dispatched by teams who have that consistency with an occasional flukey result.

At test level the margins between the players are small. Swapping Wright for Kelleway or Petaia or Mark and Porecki for Lonergan or Fainga'a or Faessler is not going to yield a massive change in results.

Rugby Australia have as a collective mishandled this WC cycle and the blame has to be shared. At this stage it feels like crossing fingers and hope which rarely works at this level.

I find it highly unlikely that Tupou and Bell are going to be Supermen that save the team.

You put the best players in on form. All this cohesion is massively overrated. South Africa rested half their players and had no issues

 

[Doritos Day]

You put the best players in on form. All this cohesion is massively overrated. South Africa rested half their players and had no issues

It's overrated in the Ben Darwin hyperanalytical sense ("you MUST pick X% of players from one club") but just use the eye test and you can see how disjointed the Wallabies were yesterday which was compounded by a new coach and whatever systems he's brought in that differ from previous.

I'd argue the Springboks are a more system-based team where they can mostly plug and play different options for a similar outcome. Not sure Australia can be described as such. More reliant on individual players imo. Seems like someone has to play out of their skin to jag a result and its reflected in the fact they have very rarely won convincingly this WC cycle.

They also integrate rotation methodically. So do France. Australia's approach is scattergun and honestly amateurish. Skelton playing spring tour games with a few days to prepare. Random SOS calls for Billy Pollard and Ollie Hoskins. One flyhalf for Europe and another for TRC.

 

[Mick The Munch]

It's overrated in the Ben Darwin hyperanalytical sense ("you MUST pick X% of players from one club") but just use the eye test and you can see how disjointed the Wallabies were yesterday which was compounded by a new coach and whatever systems he's brought in that differ from previous.

I'd argue the Springboks are a more system-based team where they can mostly plug and play different options for a similar outcome. Not sure Australia can be described as such. More reliant on individual players imo. Seems like someone has to play out of their skin to jag a result and its reflected in the fact they have very rarely won convincingly this WC cycle.

They also integrate rotation methodically. So do France. Australia's approach is scattergun and honestly amateurish. Skelton playing spring tour games with a few days to prepare. Random SOS calls for Billy Pollard and Ollie Hoskins. One flyhalf for Europe and another for TRC.

Disjointed, like England has looked since the last WC

 

[KOB1987]

You put the best players in on form. All this cohesion is massively overrated. South Africa rested half their players and had no issues

Yes and no. The caveat has to be that they are up to test rugby, many aren‘t. But let’s go through the exercise anyway - this is very off the cuff and i’m happy to be overruled. Someone asked for the Team of the Year (based off the team of the week) to be revealed, it’s no doubt a better assembly than mine. But we’re looking at something like:

1. Gibbon
2. Faessler
3. Ala'alatoa
4. Frost
5. Holloway
6. Valetini
7. Wilkin
8. Gleeson
9. Gordon
10. Gordon
11. Toole
12. Foketi
13. Flook
14. Petaia
15. Jorgensen

 

[Brumby Runner]

Have now watched the game with the benefit of all the comments that have preceded this post.

Eddie is definitely under the microscope. His selection of Vunivalu was a mistake as most on here had predicted. That should be the last time Vunivalu pulls on a Wallaby jersey. Eddie's kick at all costs, play without the ball game plan is a failure and always will be.

Defence was a major issue. Shades of Nathan Grey's time as AC. If that is in anyway related to Brett Hodgson's appointment, then that will be another big black mark against Eddie.

Player selections otherwise might be defended, but as many here have pointed out, some were failures or simply not up to the mark. Neither Porecki nor Uelese are Wallaby level, and need to be replaced. With an eye to trying to get some effectiveness over the ball at the breakdown, Folau Fainga'a and Lachie Lonergan need to be in the 23. I'm really not sure what positives Skelton brought to the game. He does not jump in the lineout, he does not bend or break the line when he carries, he most likely contributes very little at scrum time. He does disrupt opposition mauls but Jed Holloway does that too, and perhaps better. Tom Hooper was thrown to the wolves as a starter with primary responsibility along with Nick Frost for the lineout. Common sense should have dictated he come off the bench like the other debutants.

I've been saying for at least two years that Michael Hooper is not effective in the modern game. That was clearly on display again in this game. Again, looking to enhance the competition for the ball, Fraser McReight would offer a better solution at 7, though if a bigger body is needed then look to someone like Kemeny. In any case, we need to beef up the forwards pack in all aspects of the game. Bell and Tupou are sorely needed in the front row, and if fit should be starting. Slipper and Ala'alatoa would make an excellent bench pair to come on in the second half.

If nothing else, Eddie needs to drastically change his game plan, get rid of the smirk off his face, stop being a media tart and get rid of his love of League players or else he wi;ll find himself shunted sideways or be sacked altogether once CEO Waugh displaces and replaces Hamish McL. I think this will likely be a very short stay for Eddie at the Wallabies because I se no evidence that he knows much at all about the game of rugby and he does not have the sense to listen to those who do.

 

[Adam84]

I don't know if anyone else has noticed and I may be completely wrong but seems like M Hooper has been playing with some sort of injury this year. I've noticed him clutching at his arm multiple times this year when playing for the Tahs (e.g. a few times in the Moana game) and even last night v the Boks where he goes to make a tackle, bounces off and holds his arm as if his shoulder is dislocated or something (could just be stingers, who knows?). General consensus is he's not as effective as he once was and why continue to play him if he's not 100 and there are better options (McReight, Samu, Gleeson) - of course not to take away from his effort and what he's done for the jersey but if it's time, then it's time.

Given his workload, position, playing style and tenure in the game, I'd say it's highly likely he has some kind of degenerative issues like osteoarthritis due to wear & tear and previous injuries/scar tissue. I don't know if that's contributing to the appearance he is injured, or even impacting on him yet. I'd assume If he were carrying an injury that could fix I'm sure they would have already, whereas some of these degenerative issues can really only be managed.

 

[Sir Arthur Higgins]

Have now watched the game with the benefit of all the comments that have preceded this post.

Eddie is definitely under the microscope. His selection of Vunivalu was a mistake as most on here had predicted. That should be the last time Vunivalu pulls on a Wallaby jersey. Eddie's kick at all costs, play without the ball game plan is a failure and always will be.

Defence was a major issue. Shades of Nathan Grey's time as AC. If that is in anyway related to Brett Hodgson's appointment, then that will be another big black mark against Eddie.

Player selections otherwise might be defended, but as many here have pointed out, some were failures or simply not up to the mark. Neither Porecki nor Uelese are Wallaby level, and need to be replaced. With an eye to trying to get some effectiveness over the ball at the breakdown, Folau Fainga'a and Lachie Lonergan need to be in the 23. I'm really not sure what positives Skelton brought to the game. He does not jump in the lineout, he does not bend or break the line when he carries, he most likely contributes very little at scrum time. He does disrupt opposition mauls but Jed Holloway does that too, and perhaps better. Tom Hooper was thrown to the wolves as a starter with primary responsibility along with Nick Frost for the lineout. Common sense should have dictated he come off the bench like the other debutants.

I've been saying for at least two years that Michael Hooper is not effective in the modern game. That was clearly on display again in this game. Again, looking to enhance the competition for the ball, Fraser McReight would offer a better solution at 7, though if a bigger body is needed then look to someone like Kemeny. In any case, we need to beef up the forwards pack in all aspects of the game. Bell and Tupou are sorely needed in the front row, and if fit should be starting. Slipper and Ala'alatoa would make an excellent bench pair to come on in the second half.

If nothing else, Eddie needs to drastically change his game plan, get rid of the smirk off his face, stop being a media tart and get rid of his love of League players or else he wi;ll find himself shunted sideways or be sacked altogether once CEO Waugh displaces and replaces Hamish McL. I think this will likely be a very short stay for Eddie at the Wallabies because I se no evidence that he knows much at all about the game of rugby and he does not have the sense to listen to those who do.

I thought and think his appointment was a mistake. Hamish didn’t like a quieter coach like rennie, he wanted someone bombastic and brash to generate headlines like he likes to do and so eddie was a messiah to him.
thought rennie was doing reasonably well all things considered.
The selections were bizarre. Vuni should’ve been given an australia a start and a bench appearance not a Pretoria start. Talk about lions den!
Michael hooper has been off it all year. To me this was just a selection based on history not form and that’s not what wallbies need.
Skelton yet to fire a shot at test level. Never got the obsession! Rodda needed. An absolute workhorse.

 

[Marce]

Would like to see Corey Toole get involved in the Wallaby squad too, adds a good point of difference to our back 3

If he scores a try in Tonga he would receive the call. It's as easy as that ATM, I said that. Australia A players were the big winners of Saturday's performance

 

[Rugby Head]

The selection of Brett Hodgson as our defence coach still baffles me. A former NRL player/ coach to be catapulted straight into a national teams coaching ranks, a nice 42 point outing to kick things off.

 

[PhilClinton]

The selection of Brett Hodgson as our defence coach still baffles me. A former NRL player/ coach to be catapulted straight into a national teams coaching ranks, a nice 42 point outing to kick things off.

Sit back use your imagination and think of the best defensive coach the Wallabies could get. Whoever that person is still wouldn't have got this group of players into a position to win that game. Our teams need more than the impact a national squad defensive coach can provide, needs to be happening much earlier.

It's the sad and brutal reality that we're so far off where we expect the Wallabies to be. Our players and pathways are so lacking compared to other rugby strong nations.

I wouldn't be opposed to the mods opening a Wallabies 2027 thread because honestly us building towards a home RWC, with some of the good young talent available is probably the last-ditch effort this team will have to give rugby a fighting chance as a professional game here.

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

Given his workload, position, playing style and tenure in the game, I'd say it's highly likely he has some kind of degenerative issues like osteoarthritis due to wear & tear and previous injuries/scar tissue. I don't know if that's contributing to the appearance he is injured, or even impacting on him yet. I'd assume If he were carrying an injury that could fix I'm sure they would have already, whereas some of these degenerative issues can really only be managed.

This is bang on. Can't speak for him obviously but 15 years of top level Rugby in the back row and not being the biggest guy on the field will weather the body beyond what his age is. The last couple of years of McCaw he looked half busted as well. His motor is still there, you can see that but he's lost the edge and that ability for the big play like the driving tackle or line break of a couple years ago. Once that's gone we notice the lack of size and pilfer.

 

[Wilson]

Plenty of understandable Vunivalu hate and I agree he should be dropped, but it's worth noting our defence was a mess and was generally already in tatters by the time he was the last man beaten. If we can't get that right Nawaqanitawase will be on a hiding to nothing. Kellaway/Petaia might fair a bit better as they're both better defensively, but relying on wingers to save our bacon is hardly a winning strategy.

 

[KOB1987]

I thought and think his appointment was a mistake. Hamish didn’t like a quieter coach like rennie, he wanted someone bombastic and brash to generate headlines like he likes to do and so eddie was a messiah to him.
thought rennie was doing reasonably well all things considered.
The selections were bizarre. Vuni should’ve been given an australia a start and a bench appearance not a Pretoria start. Talk about lions den!
Michael hooper has been off it all year. To me this was just a selection based on history not form and that’s not what wallbies need.
Skelton yet to fire a shot at test level. Never got the obsession! Rodda needed. An absolute workhorse.

I don't think getting beaten by Italy is even close to doing 'reasonably well'. I thought Rennie deserved to take us through to the RWC this year but if Eddie was their man then I can also see why RA needed to pounce when they did. Don't forget all Rennie's assistants had started to bail out as well, we weren't going to get results this year with Rennie in charge, and probably regardless of who is. It's all about 2025 and 2027.

 

[upthereds#!]

By no means do I think the season/RWC is a write off from one result but to some extent it looks like the writing is on the wall.

Through a combination of injuries (let’s call them unavoidable; arguable) and the constant changing of international eligibility (Japan players only in TRC, Euro players only in Spring) we are seeing a team that has essentially wasted ~30 games since the last WC

They now have 4-5 to magically gel which is impossible. The best teams are those with strong cohesion especially in the technical roles; 9-10 axis and 2-4-5 especially. And have been honing that for 3.5 years. Australia has massive question marks over multiple key positions; again...

It feels a bit inevitable that Australia are going to be dispatched by teams who have that consistency with an occasional flukey result.

At test level the margins between the players are small. Swapping Wright for Kelleway or Petaia or Mark and Porecki for Lonergan or Fainga'a or Faessler is not going to yield a massive change in results.

Rugby Australia have as a collective mishandled this WC cycle and the blame has to be shared. At this stage it feels like crossing fingers and hope which rarely works at this level.

I find it highly unlikely that Tupou and Bell are going to be Supermen that save the team.

Whilst not supermen, I believe Bell and Tupou can WIN penalties, not just remain neutral off the bench, whereas Nonggoor and Gibbon were actively detracting.

I think we also do need at least 1 more big man starting. Frost and Hooper are big, but don't play big - can't have both start at once. This would be acceptable if we had a more physical starting front row and 7, but we don't.

No superman, but need a better balance. Was quite close, but not close enough.

 

[dru]

Was quite close, but not close enough.

?

 

[Slim 293]

I thought and think his appointment was a mistake. Hamish didn’t like a quieter coach like rennie, he wanted someone bombastic and brash to generate headlines like he likes to do and so eddie was a messiah to him.
thought rennie was doing reasonably well all things considered.
The selections were bizarre. Vuni should’ve been given an australia a start and a bench appearance not a Pretoria start. Talk about lions den!
Michael hooper has been off it all year. To me this was just a selection based on history not form and that’s not what wallbies need.
Skelton yet to fire a shot at test level. Never got the obsession! Rodda needed. An absolute workhorse.

If Rodda was a horse he would’ve been shot…

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

Plenty of understandable Vunivalu hate and I agree he should be dropped, but it's worth noting our defence was a mess and was generally already in tatters by the time he was the last man beaten. If we can't get that right Nawaqanitawase will be on a hiding to nothing. Kellaway/Petaia might fair a bit better as they're both better defensively, but relying on wingers to save our bacon is hardly a winning strategy.

Kellaway & Petaia are better Rugby players as of right now and that's what we need.

Whilst not supermen, I believe Bell and Tupou can WIN penalties, not just remain neutral off the bench, whereas Nonggoor and Gibbon were actively detracting.

I think we also do need at least 1 more big man starting. Frost and Hooper are big, but don't play big - can't have both start at once. This would be acceptable if we had a more physical starting front row and 7, but we don't.

No superman, but need a better balance. Was quite close, but not close enough.

Bang on. Frost offers a lot in attack and his athleticism is great but he's not imposing at all in defence or at ruck time. This is where Holloway can get into the team. He throws his body around in the tight stuff.

 

[eastman]

Plenty of understandable Vunivalu hate and I agree he should be dropped, but it's worth noting our defence was a mess and was generally already in tatters by the time he was the last man beaten. If we can't get that right Nawaqanitawase will be on a hiding to nothing. Kellaway/Petaia might fair a bit better as they're both better defensively, but relying on wingers to save our bacon is hardly a winning strategy.

100% - He should be dropped but he didn’t get much help from his inside men. Marky Mark (Nawaqanitawase) is hardly a known defender too.

 

[eastman]

I don't think getting beaten by Italy is even close to doing 'reasonably well'. I thought Rennie deserved to take us through to the RWC this year but if Eddie was their man then I can also see why Rugby Australia needed to pounce when they did. Don't forget all Rennie's assistants had started to bail out as well, we weren't going to get results this year with Rennie in charge, and probably regardless of who is. It's all about 2025 and 2027.

We were beaten because it was a second string team which seems to be constantly overlooked. Had we selected our strongest side we would have won in a canter. We nearly beat the two strongest sides in the world on that tour.

 

[upthereds#!]

?

Balanced frost with skelton
Balanced hooper with valetini
BUT then
Both hooker and 7 are small
Both props aren't big

So whilst there was balance within particular internal units, there wasn't balance as a pack

Need a balance of workrate and impact - we got the balance wrong. Too much work, not enough bang.