Wallabies 2023

[stillmissit]

Both the Ponies and Tahs are running playmaking from the 9, I think that will continue until after the RWC with White and Gordon our best bets at that style of play

In the interview I posted earlier in this thread, Jones talked about needing to have the leadership group grow and flourish as fixed game plan from the coach fails at various hurdles, with so many YCs, RCs & injuries the leaders need to adapt and lead quickly.

He talked about most modern pro rugby players as being incredibly talented athletes, but no longer students of the game and his role was to see them grow into those leadership roles by learning to be that student

fattie, That will be the key bit - Can they adapt quickly?

 

[Braveheart81]

McKenzie was the only one who knew how to use Cooper.

McKenzie coached 22 tests.
Starting 10s were as follows:

To'omua 2 losses
Beale 1 draw, 1 loss
Cooper 6 wins 4 losses
Foley 5 wins 3 losses.

 

[RugbyReg]

It’s not your country though, it’s a club

Well the QLD team is a state team with 140 years of history. More than just a club to me.

 

[stillmissit]

Well the QLD team is a state team with 140 years of history. More than just a club to me.

Some of the guys I played with played for NSW and ditto......

 

[fatprop]

fattie, That will be the key bit - Can they adapt quickly?

nup. not quickly

 

[stillmissit]

All about the same BH. It's been like that for a bloody long time.

McKenzie coached 22 tests.
Starting 10s were as follows:

To'omua 2 losses
Beale 1 draw, 1 loss
Cooper 6 wins 4 losses
Foley 5 wins 3 losses.

 

[Braveheart81]

All about the same BH. It's been like that for a bloody long time.

There seems to be this collective memory of Cooper being unleashed during McKenzie's tenure as Wallabies coach but largely it relates to a handful of games, some good and some not so good.

I think most people would be surprised to know that Cooper started less than half the games McKenzie coached.

 

[Viking]

McKenzie coached 22 tests.
Starting 10s were as follows:

To'omua 2 losses
Beale 1 draw, 1 loss
Cooper 6 wins 4 losses
Foley 5 wins 3 losses.

This stat doesn't do a great job at rating the players performance under the coach. Given there is only one stats to go off.

Is a win/loss percentage the best metric for rating a players performance in a team game?

 

[Viking]

There seems to be this collective memory of Cooper being unleashed during McKenzie's tenure as Wallabies coach but largely it relates to a handful of games, some good and some not so good.

I think most people would be surprised to know that Cooper started less than half the games McKenzie coached.

I don't think this a surprise. McKenzie was a great coach. He didn't necessarily favour Cooper. He didn't bring Cooper in straight away from memory. Once Cooper returned he played probably his greatest Test in Duniden and had a solid EOYT. We started playing some exciting rugby too. I think it was the To'omua/Cooper combo that was exciting. Prior to this McKenzie's stint was pretty forgettable but with Cooper the team started to play some great rugby.

Then it all fell apart.

 

[Viking]

We only need Cooper and Kerevi. Ample depth in every other position, injuries aside.
There may be other options overseas in other positions but none are so clearly ahead of the Aus based options as those two.

I think Foketi is a solid replacement for Kerevi too. Obviously not at the same level or experience as Kerevi yet, but I think Foketi is good enough and like to like enough that we can win with Foketi. We can't win without Cooper. The step down is just too big to Foley/Lolesio.

 

[Brumby Runner]

We need to stop being so worried about “Nz teams” or “aus teams” if you want super rugby to be relevant. They are all club teams playing for the same trophy

My point is that the trophy is mostly irrelevant. I want a national champion with a trophy and that only happens with a purely domestic competition.

 

[Viking]

Having an Aussie GF can't be understated, for media coverage, tv ratings, general fan engagement. At the very least having Aussie players in the grand final, if super rugby actually encouraged a scenario where wallabies could play for NZ teams and vice verse, it would give greater cross-tasman interest.

I still can't believe this isn't the case. It's also an answer to strengthen the Aus sides and make them more competitive. Let NZ players play for them, and vice versa.

I think they seem to think the floodgates will open and there will be no-more Aus players left. But players will always preference there native countries. I think it will just allow more of the fringe players to move around and create depth and only one or two of the big names moving around.

 

[Viking]

My point is that the trophy is mostly irrelevant. I want a national champion with a trophy and that only happens with a purely domestic competition.

An ANZAC trophy sounds pretty relevant to me.

 

[fatprop]

My point is that the trophy is mostly irrelevant. I want a national champion with a trophy and that only happens with a purely domestic competition.

It wasn't irrelevant when we were good enough to be competitive and win the thing, I don't see how setting up an easier comp, so we can win, makes it any better

 

[Ignoto]

I think most people would be surprised to know that Cooper started less than half the games McKenzie coached.

Stats are probably skewed due to QC (Quade Cooper) busting his AC/Hip in 2014 (missed 3 French games + 4 Rugby Championship games) then broke his scapula in 2015.

 

[RugbyReg]

This stat doesn't do a great job at rating the players performance under the coach. Given there is only one stats to go off.

Is a win/loss percentage the best metric for rating a players performance in a team game?

absolutely - not a individual's game.

But let's look at ''expected results" during Link's time under each 10.

When you look at world ranking points before each game, basically every result went the expected way except for:

- the Wallaby team with Foley at 10 that lost to Argentina in 2014 was expected to win
- the Wallaby team with Kurtley at 10 that drew with New Zealand in 2014 was expected to lose.

Every other game went as expected. We lost the ones we were expected to lose and won the ones we were expected to win.

 

[Braveheart81]

Stats are probably skewed due to QC (Quade Cooper) (Quade Cooper) busting his AC/Hip in 2014 (missed 3 French games + 4 Rugby Championship games) then broke his scapula in 2015.

I think there's little doubt Cooper would have started more games under McKenzie if not for injury (although it was also pretty hard not to select Foley in 2014 with the Waratahs form in Super Rugby).

My main point was that people seem to remember that period as one where Cooper was the consistent starter but the reality was it was for less than half the tests McKenzie coached.

In terms of which coach most consistently selected Cooper as the starting 10 it was undoubtedly Deans where he was first choice for 3 years (although missed part of that third year coming back from knee injury).

 

[Wilson]

So with the Rebels recent signing announcement they've also mentioned that Phillip and Leota are going to miss most of the super season. What effect do we think it'll have on their Wallabies chances?

For mine it might be a bridge to far for Leota, particularly given he relies on explosive power that may take him a little longer to get back, but I admittedly don't rate him as highly as others. Phillip on the other hand should still have a good shot of making the world cup, particularly with the Giteau law unchanged.

 

[The Ghost of Raelene]

Big effect on Leota with how competitive back row spots are going to be. Plenty of stock coming back/through like Swinton and Gleeson in competition for the spot Leota would want.

I really like Leota and think he moves well for a bloke with his frame. Maybe if he’s back with enough games for the Rebels he’s fit and fresh and may help his cause…

I don’t know if it hurts Phillip as much because you know what you’ll get from him and his selection is probably dependent on fitness of others as I see it right now. I’m off the opinion Eddie will want Skelton in his pack.

 

[Viking]

absolutely - not a individual's game.

But let's look at ''expected results" during Link's time under each 10.

When you look at world ranking points before each game, basically every result went the expected way except for:

- the Wallaby team with Foley at 10 that lost to Argentina in 2014 was expected to win
- the Wallaby team with Kurtley at 10 that drew with New Zealand in 2014 was expected to lose.

Every other game went as expected. We lost the ones we were expected to lose and won the ones we were expected to win.

Sorry I'm not sure where you're going with this or what exactly we are debating anymore.

I was debating McKenzie knew how to use Cooper better then any other coach i.e. that Cooper played his best rugby under McKenzie compared to any other coach.

I think you may be arguing that McKenzie's wallabies weren't any better with Cooper compared to without?