Wallabies 2023

[Viking]

I’ll agree with your second paragraph but as for the last the point I was making is we don’t know if players like Stewart, even Tom English (past) etc are a better option because they aren’t going to be given the opportunity. I know the coach makes the call, and usually I trust said call, but it just seems the Brumby is getting the priority right now.

Usually the most successful super team of that year gets priority. Surely this is a consistent trend.

 

[KOB1987]

Usually the most successful super team of that year gets priority. Surely this is a consistent trend.

It would certainly be a trend, and a consistent one. The issue here is that it's potentially taken a Bradbury situation for Simone to get a call up - he was great in the supe this year but his one appearance in gold and the lack of faith from the coaches is what suggests he isn't our guy. Perhaps this is where we should look beyond the incumbent at the best franchise? For the record I don't actually have anyone in mind but maybe this is where we try out linking Lolesio with Donaldson, or Edmed or Stewart or Kuenzle or even Hodge or Petaia, or some combination of those.

 

[Tomthumb]

I would disagree that Pollard showed sufficient form to earn a spot in the Wallabies squad. he's barely started a half a dozen games (as far as I can recall). Forget that Simone only was a bench replacement - he was selected in the squad.

You should go back and read Rod McQueen's book and particularly the bit where he admitted the Brumby power he subconsciously brought into the Wallaby team in the tail end of 1997, detrimentally impacted the team. You had guys like Robinson, Howard, Finegan, Langford, Hardy all basically acting like it was a psuedo Brumbies team and it really put the Tahs and Reds players off side. Thankfully McQueen picked this up (via Eales) and was able to adjust how he operated.

This will be a bigger challenge for Rennie considering he is surrounded by Brumby coaches and a captain.

Managing team dynamics is such a crucial part of the game at this level. It’s what Link did so well at the Reds but couldn’t do at the Wallabies.

If we are going to debate the 4th string hooker in the squad I think we may be overanalysing sone what
But Simone earned his selection. As I said he’s been the form 12 in Australia for 3 years. The fact he’s leaving shouldn’t matter as it didn’t matter for Paenga-Amosa and overseas players keep getting picked more and more so why should they change that policy for Simone

And the McQueen correlation doesn’t really fit. He was a former Brumbies coach that was now coaching all his Brumby players in the Wallabies. Dave Rennie isnt and has never been a Brumbies coach nor had affiliation with any Australian Super teams, and he sets the culture

 

[Ignoto]

We can’t give every player an opportunity…

They need to at least show their worth in Super Rugby or some other similar tiered comp first to get selected.

Jock Campbell was the best Fullback for 2 years running in Super Rugby Australia and that still didn't get him a look in.

Yet, I keep reading about how Tom Wright is a "rocks and diamonds" player and is a "match winner".

 

[KOB1987]

If we are going to debate the 4th string hooker in the squad I think we may be overanalysing sone what
But Simone earned his selection. As I said he’s been the form 12 in Australia for 3 years. The fact he’s leaving shouldn’t matter as it didn’t matter for Paenga-Amosa and overseas players keep getting picked more and more so why should they change that policy for Simone

And the McQueen correlation doesn’t really fit. He was a former Brumbies coach that was now coaching all his Brumby players in the Wallabies. Dave Rennie isnt and has never been a Brumbies coach nor had affiliation with any Australian Super teams, and he sets the culture

Only if you think the analysis shouldn't ask why a provincial 4th stringer was selected in the national team

 

[Tomthumb]

It would certainly be a trend, and a consistent one. The issue here is that it's potentially taken a Bradbury situation for Simone to get a call up - he was great in the supe this year but his one appearance in gold and the lack of faith from the coaches is what suggests he isn't our guy. Perhaps this is where we should look beyond the incumbent at the best franchise? For the record I don't actually have anyone in mind but maybe this is where we try out linking Lolesio with Donaldson, or Edmed or Stewart or Kuenzle or even Hodge or Petaia, or some combination of those.

So use the Wallabies as a testing ground for….the Wallabies?

People seem to have a problem with Pollards lack of experience but want Edmed in the Wallabies off only 18 professional games? And Gleeson started 1 game for the Tahs and it’s ok to pick him. But how dare they pick Billy Pollard

 

[Tomthumb]

Only if you think the analysis shouldn't ask why a provincial 4th stringer was selected in the national team

Should we also ask why a reserve loose forward from the Waratahs was selected in the Wallabies?

 

[Up the Guts]

Yeah the Uelese one is a little odd. He was second choice at RWC19 and put in some fairly solid performances behind Latu.

He’s also a fair bit bigger than someone like Porecki, we needed that on Saturday.

 

[KOB1987]

So use the Wallabies as a testing ground for….the Wallabies?

People seem to have a problem with Pollards lack of experience by want Edmed in the Wallabies off only 18 professional games? And Gleeson started 1 game for the Tahs and it’s ok to pick him. But how dare they pick Billy Pollard

It's actually why it's called a test match believe it or not.

It's actually not Billy Pollard that was the issue, think back a year

 

[KOB1987]

Should we also ask why a reserve loose forward from the Waratahs was selected in the Wallabies?

All the big Brumbies locks/loosies were used up I believe

 

[KOB1987]

Did Brumby Jack steal your sandwich or something?

Surely if the Waratahs boys disliked it they would try and get Rennie out the same way they got McKenzie out

It was actually a true statement. I'm trying to actually think who you are referring to? Holloway? I know you don't like him but I'm pretty sure he was a starter at the Tahs all year, sans maybe after an injury layoff. I'm also trying to find where I mentioned him - I certainly haven't advocated his selection anywhere, I'll admit I don't mind him being around, he adds something, he's definitely not a waste of space. I'm not sure if he needs more time or if he'll never get there, but I'm happy for them to try to find out. Much like Simone, as long as he's not the only one they are considering.

 

[Tomthumb]

It was actually a true statement. I'm trying to actually think who you are referring to? Holloway? I know you don't like him but I'm pretty sure he was a starter at the Tahs all year, sans maybe after an injury layoff. I'm also trying to find where I mentioned him - I certainly haven't advocated his selection anywhere, I'll admit I don't mind him being around, he adds something, he's definitely not a waste of space. I'm not sure if he needs more time or if he'll never get there, but I'm happy for them to try to find out. Much like Simone, as long as he's not the only one they are considering.

I was referring to Langi Gleeson

But the fact Jed Holloway was preferred to Nick Frost goes against the narrative that Rennie only picks Brumbies

 

[KOB1987]

I was referring to Langi Gleeson

But the fact Jed Holloway was preferred to Nick Frost goes against the narrative that Rennie only picks Brumbies

Gleeson is in the squad only, I'm pretty sure I have never mentioned him. Kid has a future as does Pollard and no issues with either of them being educated, and for the record no issues with Pollard being selected v Argentina in the circumstances that were handed to us.

Holloway v Frost is an interesting one and I didn't ever say that Rennie only picks Brumbies, I commented on the fact that the squad is stacked with Brumbies players and coaches and it didn't work out so well so maybe they need to look at that. The discussion on Simone was a by-product of that.

I thought that Frost wasn't quite there yet and at the same time I didn't think Jed was a test standard player. Considering the injuries etc I was content with them to roll the dice with one starting and the other on the bench, and the only reason I can give that those positions weren't reversed for Bled 2 was that Rennie essentially chose to name an unchanged (aside from the forced ones) line up after that immense performance in Bled 1.

 

[Slim 293]

Anyways…

Doran’s mail is generally reliable, and Payten is now reporting in the SMH that Hooper will resume training to make selection for the spring tour…

Squad won’t be announced until after the Aus A series but apparently Foley will be cleared to play, and Skelton likely to be included.

 

[Brumby Runner]

If he wants to make that point, surely he has to expand on it.

Who are the Brumbies who haven't warranted selection?

We've used three Brumbies props who are clearly in our top 5 props and largely have remained injury free this season while Bell and Tupou have both missed time.
We've used three Brumbies hookers with the second and third really only getting a crack because Porecki and/or Fainga'a were injured.
We've used three Brumbies locks and somewhat that has been because other locks (or those Brumbies ones) have been injured or suspended. No one is really arguing that they're not in our top 5.
We've picked Valetini and Samu in every test (with Samu off the bench in a bunch) and arguably they are our best two players this year.
Nic White has started a lot of tests and then been on the bench. Most people clamoring for McDermott are doing so at the expense of Gordon, not White.
Noah Lolesio clearly warrants selection based on who we have had available at certain points.
Len Ikitau is probably our most consistent back this season.
Tom Banks was an obvious first choice 15 at the start of the season before injury.
Tom Wright has deserved to be there at points and early in the test season was playing well but should be dropped now.
Irae Simone played off the bench when we were missing a lot of 12 options.

Who's the 18th player I am missing?

Laurie Fisher has joined the coaching staff at short notice after they parted way with the previous defensive coach. McKellar has been there all season.

You could write the same article and conclude by questioning how much worse things would be this season if we didn't have so many Brumbies players and coaches available for selection.

Can't have that sort of balanced viewpoint being expressed on GAGR BH.

Actually, too many Brumbies makes a change from too many Tahs. Seems it's the cross to bear by the side having most current success.

I am a bit inclined to also say too many Brumbies, with the finger pointed in Tom Wright's and perhaps Cadeyrn Neville's directions, but is there any consensus about who would replace them? The question has been asked a few times in recent posts but there have been few nominations apart from Tom English, Suliasi Vunivalu and Jock Campbell. I don't personally count FF (Folau Fainga'a) as a Brumby anymore even if his contract has not yet officially expired.

Really, English was never more than a sometimes better than par No 13 at Super level, and played most of his career pre-Rennie during which he didn't get picked by the coaches then.

Vunivalu must not be meeting performance levels set for him at training, but I for one wish he had been given a shot in Bledisloe 2. We still don't know if he has what it takes in Rugby or not and that is a missed opportunity as far as I am concerned.

Jock has been impressive at 15, not so much on the wing, over the past couple of years. Can only assume again he hasn't satisfied Rennie of his ability to rise to test match level. He's unlikely now to get much opportunity as the 15 spot looks to be tied up between Kellaway and Hodge, neither of whom are Brumbies it might be noted.

Other complaints have been lodged against players like Stewart not getting a go at 12. While complaining about too many Brumbies, these posters apparently have forgotten that the 12 spot is filled by an overseas player, a Reds player and a Tahs player. If Kerevi is fit and available he will have that spot but otherwise I'd have my money on Foketi.

It probably looks like I am directing these comments at you, but in replying to your post I am trying to indicate my agreement with the situation as you have described it. Sorry if it seems otherwise.

In summary, I wouldn't be upset if Vunivalu got a run soon at Wright's expense but it is not clear that he will be better. In the second row, I reckon all of Philip, Swain and Frost are better than Neville or have more potential that will be realised quite quickly. Like you, I haven't yet seen suggested players who are indisputably or even arguably better than most of the Brumbies who are currently in the Wallabies team.

 

[tragic]

If he wants to make that point, surely he has to expand on it.

Who are the Brumbies who haven't warranted selection?

We've used three Brumbies props who are clearly in our top 5 props and largely have remained injury free this season while Bell and Tupou have both missed time.
We've used three Brumbies hookers with the second and third really only getting a crack because Porecki and/or Fainga'a were injured.
We've used three Brumbies locks and somewhat that has been because other locks (or those Brumbies ones) have been injured or suspended. No one is really arguing that they're not in our top 5.
We've picked Valetini and Samu in every test (with Samu off the bench in a bunch) and arguably they are our best two players this year.
Nic White has started a lot of tests and then been on the bench. Most people clamoring for McDermott are doing so at the expense of Gordon, not White.
Noah Lolesio clearly warrants selection based on who we have had available at certain points.
Len Ikitau is probably our most consistent back this season.
Tom Banks was an obvious first choice 15 at the start of the season before injury.
Tom Wright has deserved to be there at points and early in the test season was playing well but should be dropped now.
Irae Simone played off the bench when we were missing a lot of 12 options.

Who's the 18th player I am missing?

Laurie Fisher has joined the coaching staff at short notice after they parted way with the previous defensive coach. McKellar has been there all season.

You could write the same article and conclude by questioning how much worse things would be this season if we didn't have so many Brumbies players and coaches available for selection.

Despite all those un-droppable wallabies they snuck home against the reds by 4 at home and lost by 14 at suncorp this year.
Hard to beat a tier one international side when you’re on the wrong side of the for/against ledger in a local derby
Just sayin…..

 

[Slim 293]

Despite all those un-droppable wallabies they snuck home against the reds by 4 at home and lost by 14 at suncorp this year.
Hard to beat a tier one international side when you’re on the wrong side of the for/against ledger in a local derby
Just sayin…..

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I'm generally pretty skeptical about accusations of state bias in Wallaby team selections, especially in the pro era. I look at the Brumbies picked in the match day 23 and for the most part I struggle to work out who from the other Super teams would be a better candidate.

So let's look at them, taking from the squad that played against NZ last weekend
- Tom Wright has done his dash and for my money can be considered back of the pack. His errors and general brain explosions are too costly to warrant a continued place in the team.
- Caderyn Neville - OK but not earth shattering. That doesn't warrant dropping him necessarily.
- FF (Folau Fainga'a) - I have some concerns over his discipline and lineout throwing
- Frost has real promise
- Bobby V, AAA, Pete, Len and White are all comfortably in our best 23 any game of the year

So I'm not seeing a strong case for wholesale ditching of Brumbies players. I do think that guys like Jock and Tate should tour the NH and get some game time.

 

[Overtime]

On form both Pollard & Lonergan deserve their spot. Kaitu’u was poor this season and Uelese has had plenty of chances and taken none

Simone never started, and he’s been the form 12 in Australia for the last 3 years so seems a strange guy to complain about

Wright is rocks & Diamonds yes, but people acting as if he isn’t a good player on his day. Played well vs England and in the first Argentina test. Or are we only allowed to mention bad moments?

After watching Holloway flounder in test rugby, you really think Swain is not a better option?

Frost & Lolesio can barely make the team and we are claiming a Brumbies bias??

Lolesio, has had 11 starts since 2020 and 5 games as a finisher. To me he has had more opportunities than many others and while one man does not make a team, his win/loss ratio when starting is just 36%. Saying that, if any of the other young 10's had of been selected I don't think they would of faired much better. I would however like to see one of the other younger 10's be given a go perhaps from the bench against Italy. I think Donaldson has the most potential of them all including Lolesio. Unfortunately, he hasn't until this year been given the same opportunities at Super Rugby level to impress for selection. Harrison was always in front of him at the Tah's but never really impressed at 10. I would like to see both Vunivalu and Marky Mark (Nawaqanitawase) be given an opportunity in the back 3. Both have pace and will chase the box kick and are good under the high ball. Marky Mark (Nawaqanitawase)'s defence has also dramatically improved. I was initially a fan of Write and Petaia but have had enough of both of them for the time being. The forwards are a worry as none other than Valetini and Samu have really consistently stood up this year. Rodda and Frost may be the answer with Skelton coming on from the bench to add some serious go forward for the last 25 mins. Gleeson is a huge talent and should also be given a go from the bench against Italy if Hooper is not available. And I really wish Izaia Perese hadn't gotten injured as he has both pace and the ability to get the team moving forward much like Kerevi and could do with more experience before the world cup. As far as Pollard goes I was comfortable with the selection given the circumstances as I think he is like Gleeson a huge talent for the future. Get rid of Lonergan though as hooker. And boy there are some seriously one eyed Brumbies supporters on this forum.

 

[Ignoto]

So I'm not seeing a strong case for wholesale ditching of Brumbies players. I do think that guys like Jock and Tate should tour the NH and get some game time.

If you go back on some of the comments, I don't think anyone is suggesting that there's anyone material that would make a huge difference.

What is frustrating is, seeing the obvious bias towards squad players being filled with Brumbies who shouldn't be near the squad. Those players may have promise, but over the last year or so, they were given preferential treatment.

What is quantifiable is, the Wallabies have a known discipline issue and the Brumbies players are leading the tally with Yellow and Red Cards along with the two repeat infringes; Swain and Wright.

Add in we keep hearing the head coach role is for Dan to lose after next year along with no noticeable difference being made when Dan brought in his back room staff ie Palmer and Laurie.

Dan looks more and more like Larkham 2.0. Touted too early to be HC without the current team humming along.

I'm not saying the players picked or even the coaching staff aren't the best choices. However, your kidding yourself if the Brumby contingent both staff and players shouldn't be scrutinised for the apparent favourtism which isnt paying off.