Wallabies 2020

[Lorenzo]

The best thing (short to medium term) we can do for the short, medium and long term health of both the wobs and the broader sport is to start winning again. If that means we play Brock James and Matt Giteau in the 10 and 12 positions (they were just old guys whose names I could remember) in 2020 then so be it. Develop a culture of excellence and winning and it hangs around long after the individuals have gone. At the moment, and I mean no disrespect to the people involved because I appreciate their effort, we have a culture of losing and mediocrity (and this is why I object to selecting players for their 'experience' when that experience was exclusively gained on teams that sucked - they aren't bringing in experience of excellence).

I also posted this upthread, but if the next 3.5 years are like the last 3.5, no one in Aus is going to bother watching France2023.

 

[Uh huh]

It's not like I'm advocating jettisoning all players who aren't expected to make the next world cup, I'm merely making the point that stopgap measures like To'omua at 10 and Meakes at 12 will serve only to strangle the development of the young players that could lead a reasonable campaign in 2023 (and do we really think they'll deliver vastly better short term outcomes than just giving the youngsters some game time?). This endless shuffling around of established players to paper over the cracks in our development pathways is the way of our recent past, and it hasn't really worked out.

 

[Lorenzo]

I get that, and I am saying that you pick the best 15/23 for the next test you have to play. If you expect young players to perform better than older ones, you play them. If the reverse is true, play the older guys. If it's a wash, and sometimes it is, play the guy with bigger upside, which is probably the younger guy.

If Lucas and Deegan aren't as least as good as 'stopgap' To'omua, then they aren't that good, are they? The national side isn't supposed to be some developmental program where we bring in guys that clearly aren't ready in the hope that they suddenly excel at test level if we have players that we think are better than them.

You don't need to expect 'vastly better' short term outcomes to warrant doing it this way, you just need to expect 'better' short term outcomes. We need incremental improvement in every possible way so we can maximise our chances of actually winning.

 

[Brumby Runner]

I think worrying about the RWC (or allowing it to influence your selections) less than about 18 - 24 months out from it is foolish.

What I posted earlier:

We probably won't win in 2023. Too much can go wrong too easily. He'll, the Abs - the most dominant sports team in history - are only 3 from 9. Subjugating the bledisloe and everything else in between now and 2023 looks and feels pretty stupid when you don't win it.

Erasmus was asked about 2023 and he said they would focus on the 2021 lions tour and worry about the RWC after that. And I think, given rugby injury (Pat Lambie was starting for the boks less than 3y ago and now he has retired), form, and the inevitability of new talent emerging over 4 years, people going to japan at 24yo becuase their family needs the cash and so on, that's fairly sensible. If we must build towards something, perhaps it should be the 2021 RC/Bled?

I really think we need to move on from the WC cycle bullshit. It's four years away, who knows what players are going to turn up, find form, lose form, retire, get injured, move overseas etc between now and then.
In the meantime, let's allow Rennie and his selectors to just put the best team on the paddock that they can, and see if we can show an improved performance against Ireland, in the RC and the Bled. Knock over all those would be the greatest thing they could do for Australian rugby right now, worry about the WC in 2023!

Uh Huh's post was specifically about the Irish tests next year, as were my remarks. Neither of us mentioned the RWC 2023.

 

[Lorenzo]

Uh Huh's post was specifically about the Irish tests next year, as were my remarks. Neither of us mentioned the RWC 2023.

"We're at the very start of the world cup cycle, I don't think we should be looking for players to 'cover' positions on a temporary basis, in the vain hope that somebody better comes along. We know who our best young players are, let's select them and give them the time to prove themselves"

Forgive me, but I inferred he was referring to '23 in the above paragraph?

 

[KOB1987]

I get that, and I am saying that you pick the best 15/23 for the next test you have to play. If you expect young players to perform better than older ones, you play them. If the reverse is true, play the older guys. If it's a wash, and sometimes it is, play the guy with bigger upside, which is probably the younger guy.

If Lucas and Deegan aren't as least as good as 'stopgap' To'omua, then they aren't that good, are they? The national side isn't supposed to be some developmental program where we bring in guys that clearly aren't ready in the hope that they suddenly excel at test level if we have players that we think are better than them.

You don't need to expect 'vastly better' short term outcomes to warrant doing it this way, you just need to expect 'better' short term outcomes. We need incremental improvement in every possible way so we can maximise our chances of actually winning.

full marks

 

['Tattsy'TaylorFan1]

I hope Bryce Hegarty becomes the Wallaby 10 next year, especially given Scott Johnson has rightfully put a focus on improved kicking. What you see through various media channels of Dave Alred's kicking work with Hegarty and the other Reds backs is fantastic and a very, very good investment by the QRU. The talk about Andrew Deegan being the Wallaby 10 is utterly crazy.

 

[Derpus]

I hope Bryce Hegarty becomes the Wallaby 10 next year, especially given Scott Johnson has rightfully put a focus on improved kicking. What you see through various media channels of Dave Alred's kicking work with Hegarty and the other Reds backs is fantastic and a very, very good investment by the QRU. The talk about Andrew Deegan being the Wallaby 10 is utterly crazy.

Hegarty is a solid Super fill in.

Test rugby player he most definitely is not. If you thought Foley's out of hand kicking was bad wait till Hegarty pulls on green and gold.

 

[Slim 293]

I hope Bryce Hegarty becomes the Wallaby 10 next year, especially given Scott Johnson has rightfully put a focus on improved kicking. What you see through various media channels of Dave Alred's kicking work with Hegarty and the other Reds backs is fantastic and a very, very good investment by the QRU. The talk about Andrew Deegan being the Wallaby 10 is utterly crazy.

Not as crazy as the suggestion of Bryce Hegarty.........

 

[cyclopath]

I hope Bryce Hegarty becomes the Wallaby 10 next year, especially given Scott Johnson has rightfully put a focus on improved kicking. What you see through various media channels of Dave Alred's kicking work with Hegarty and the other Reds backs is fantastic and a very, very good investment by the QRU. The talk about Andrew Deegan being the Wallaby 10 is utterly crazy.

While Deegan might be very green, so perhaps being somewhat prematurely thrown up as an option, Hegarty has really done little in several years to scream out "International 10" as opposed to "Handy Super Rugby squad member".

 

[Bobby Sands]

Hegarty is a solid Super fill in.

Test rugby player he most definitely is not. If you thought Foley's out of hand kicking was bad wait till Hegarty pulls on green and gold.

I'm not sure of that - think it could be the opposite.

Think he could actually be an ok Super Rugby player, and a fairly astute test rugby player.

 

[Derpus]

I'm not sure of that - think it could be the opposite.

Think he could actually be an ok Super Rugby player, and a fairly astute test rugby player.

You are a strange man Bobby. Foley displayed infinitely more ability at Super level than Hegarty could ever dream of and you hate him.

Hegarty is fine for a mid-table team with no alternatives. That's about it.

 

[Brumby Runner]

I hope Deegan gets a good opportunity at 10 with the Rebels next season, with MT at 12. If AD can show some of the game management skills he displayed all through the NRC with the Force. he'll go better than ok. IMO, one of the best two or three players in the NRC along with Jonny Dyer and Wilson from the Reds. Clearly the best No 10 in the competition.

For the long term benefit of the Wallabies, I would like to see the Deegan/To'omua, 10/12, combination prosper at Super level and make the grade at test level.

 

[cyclopath]

You are a strange man Bobby. Foley displayed infinitely more ability at Super level than Hegarty could ever dream of and you hate him.

Hegarty is fine for a mid-table team with no alternatives. That's about it.

Can we not exhume this farking chestnut again? FFS. I think everyone has had more than enough. Please.

 

['Tattsy'TaylorFan1]

Hegarty has easily got Foley, Deegan and To'omua covered when it comes to goal kicking and field kicking. Before he went to the Reds he was a Super Rugby squad player now Alred has taught he and the Reds how to kick. Good Australian kickers are as rare as hens teeth that’s why I would go for Hegarty. Looks like McDermott, O’Connor, Petaia and Daugunu will be key Wallabies so a Reds fly-half would complement the backline well.

 

[Bobby Sands]

You are a strange man Bobby. Foley displayed infinitely more ability at Super level than Hegarty could ever dream of and you hate him.

Hegarty is fine for a mid-table team with no alternatives. That's about it.

But Foley can’t kick

 

[Bobby Sands]

Can we not exhume this farking chestnut again? FFS. I think everyone has had more than enough. Please.

Agree.

 

[Bobby Sands]

Hegarty has easily got Foley, Deegan and To'omua covered when it comes to goal kicking and field kicking. Before he went to the Reds he was a Super Rugby squad player now Alred has taught he and the Reds how to kick. Good Australian kickers are as rare as hens teeth that’s why I would go for Hegarty. Looks like McDermott, O’Connor, Petaia and Daugunu will be key Wallabies so a Reds fly-half would complement the backline well.

Here’s a man who understands the game.

Why Tattsy when you are a NSWelshman?

 

[TSR]

I'd say the race for 10 is about as open and unclear as it has ever been.

All of the possible options I am aware of are either completely new to Super Rugby, very inexperienced/unproven (particularly to be considered a test prospect) or tried and underwhelming.

I can't really see Hegarty being a likely option, but if he does play at 10 for the Reds and gets the likes of O'Connor, Petaia & Lucas firing outside him then he will give himself a chance at least.

 

[Adam84]

I think every starting australian fly-half will be considered as a strong option in 2020, and for the June series at least partnerships and combinations with other starting backs will weigh heavily. Perhaps less so for the Rugby Championship