Up the Guts
Steve Williams (59)
Surely we’re not using the win rate as a metric to judge individual success. Blind Freddy can see the Wallabies are going to be better in the near future than the last few years.
Wallabies 2020
- Thread starter A mutterer
- Start date
Brumby Runner
Jason Little (69)
Same comment probably relates to Ala'alatoa too. When the contract was signed, he was the No 1 rated THP in the country and still very young in Prop terms - a point of difference maybe with Hooper. While TT and HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes) were both performing well at the time, RA probably didn't see them necessarily displacing Alan as the starting test THP. But the important thing is that they should have anticipated one or both of them rising to the level where they were competing for the test spot, and framed the contract accordingly, ie, shorter duration. I don't know what the value of this contract is, but that ought to have been dealt with with appropriate caution as well, in the event that they didn't.
Tupou was signed to a big contract around the same time too.
Rugby Australia basically picked out a bunch of the players they thought were going to be crucial to the Wallabies over the next few years and signed them up to big long term deals. That included more experienced players to lead the way through the transition and younger players who would be the core stars over the next few years.
The experienced players among that were Hooper, To'omua and Haylett-Petty.
The young players were Ala'alatoa, Rodda, Salakaia-Loto, Tupou and Petaia.
Rodda obviously backfired because he walked out but at least they only paid him for a short period of time.
Rob42
Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Well, I didn't expect five pages of "Wallabies 2020" to be about Hooper vs Liam Gill.
Can I posit a suggestion that his contract is not as catastrophic as some would suggest?
No international coach, Dave Rennie or anyone else, is going to base their selections on the size of players' contracts - the coach has too much of their reputation riding on those selections. If Rennie takes his advice from Bobby Sands, and decides that Hooper will not feature in the Wallabies going forward, do we really think Hooper is going to hang around playing just for the Tahs and Manly for the next 2-3 years? He's on good money, but he could surely still be earning more in Europe or Japan. If it's clear his Wallaby days are over, he's very likely to want a release from that contract.
That contract is not going to be a millstone around RA's neck - either Hooper is going to continue to earn his money in gold, or he'll take the opportunity to cash in overseas.
Can I posit a suggestion that his contract is not as catastrophic as some would suggest?
No international coach, Dave Rennie or anyone else, is going to base their selections on the size of players' contracts - the coach has too much of their reputation riding on those selections. If Rennie takes his advice from Bobby Sands, and decides that Hooper will not feature in the Wallabies going forward, do we really think Hooper is going to hang around playing just for the Tahs and Manly for the next 2-3 years? He's on good money, but he could surely still be earning more in Europe or Japan. If it's clear his Wallaby days are over, he's very likely to want a release from that contract.
That contract is not going to be a millstone around RA's neck - either Hooper is going to continue to earn his money in gold, or he'll take the opportunity to cash in overseas.
Tomikin
David Codey (61)
As much as you hate NSW... Hooopers the best 7 we have ... he was our best player at the world cup...the reason gilll left as Hooper was better.. his our best player..
Try-ranosaurus Rex
Darby Loudon (17)
Well I've just read through 5+ pages of a turnstile Michael Hooper vs Liam Gill debate. Around and around and around again. I gentle reminder this is the Wallabies 2020 thread. Liam Gill hasn't been part of Aussie Rugby for over 4 years. A loss, absolutely.
Can I suggest Michael Hooper hasn't been holding the Wallabies back over the past 5 years, but rather its the parochial (edit: from both sides of the NSW/QLD border) tripe that I've just read.
Lets get behind our team and healthily (read: optimistically) debate why we're going to smash the AB's come October.
Can I suggest Michael Hooper hasn't been holding the Wallabies back over the past 5 years, but rather its the parochial (edit: from both sides of the NSW/QLD border) tripe that I've just read.
Lets get behind our team and healthily (read: optimistically) debate why we're going to smash the AB's come October.
These arguments are always amusing.
"If" Hooper was playing for the Reds, Gill would have either not got game time or moved elsewhere to get game time
and the same problem would be occurring with young Fraser
When you have a unit who is best in class and amazingly durable you even budget bench places to cover other problems
"If" Hooper was playing for the Reds, Gill would have either not got game time or moved elsewhere to get game time
and the same problem would be occurring with young Fraser
When you have a unit who is best in class and amazingly durable you even budget bench places to cover other problems
Jimmy_Crouch
Ken Catchpole (46)
12mths later.
Froggy
Nicholas Shehadie (39)
It seems to me Bobby is raising here three completely separate issues in what seems to be an almost obsessive anti Tahs, anti Hooper line of thought.
The first is the long and lucrative contract that Hooper (and as others here have pointed out) some others were signed to. This is a point worth debating, I personally am a little on the fence there.
The second is that Liam Gill was a better 7 than Hooper. This is a valid debate (I disagree, as did Deans, Link and Cheika), however either way I don't think it particularly relevant in a Wallabies 2020 thread.
The third is that the Wallabies will be better off without Hooper, and it is here I think the argument is absurd. Firstly, it will be impossible to gauge (as Hooper, when he goes, certainly won't be the only change, including all the coaching staff), and secondly the suggestion that the man who has clearly been the Wallabies most consistent performer during a particularly poor era is what's holding them back just doesn't stand scrutiny.
The first is the long and lucrative contract that Hooper (and as others here have pointed out) some others were signed to. This is a point worth debating, I personally am a little on the fence there.
The second is that Liam Gill was a better 7 than Hooper. This is a valid debate (I disagree, as did Deans, Link and Cheika), however either way I don't think it particularly relevant in a Wallabies 2020 thread.
The third is that the Wallabies will be better off without Hooper, and it is here I think the argument is absurd. Firstly, it will be impossible to gauge (as Hooper, when he goes, certainly won't be the only change, including all the coaching staff), and secondly the suggestion that the man who has clearly been the Wallabies most consistent performer during a particularly poor era is what's holding them back just doesn't stand scrutiny.
Zero_Cool
Arch Winning (36)
I think to suggest the Wallabies coach has an unfettered ability to choose whatever team they want is a bit of a reach. The ARU/RA being Sydney-centric is something even the most die hard New South Welshmen acknowledge it is real. So if anyone is going to get the benefit of that is NSW's own Prodigal Son Hooper.
As for if Hooper is better than Gill, I think it's not really a comparison that can be made -- they are very different 7's and Hooper especially is a very non-traditional 7. I think a better way to approach that debate is to consider what a traditional 7 would have brought but also considering what a more traditional back row would have given us.
I personally think our 2019 RWC back row balance was not ideal.
As for if Hooper is better than Gill, I think it's not really a comparison that can be made -- they are very different 7's and Hooper especially is a very non-traditional 7. I think a better way to approach that debate is to consider what a traditional 7 would have brought but also considering what a more traditional back row would have given us.
I personally think our 2019 RWC back row balance was not ideal.
Derpus
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Balance is also affected by the personel available in other positions. Leaving Samu behind was absolutely criminal in my view and i slated Cheika for it at the time. How can you leave behind a lineout capable in-form backrower when we had so few available?
I dont think there is any doubt our backrow was fucked at the last RWC, hard to blame it on Hoops though.
England took two relatively small backrowers (Curry and Underhill) who play a very similar 'non-traditional' high energy game to Hooper but made it work.
Not gunna comment on conspiracy theories. Somehow doubt Rennie will give two shits about the Sydney Mafia though. He's an in demand coach that was slated for the All Blacks gig. I think he holds the balance of power there.
I dont think there is any doubt our backrow was fucked at the last RWC, hard to blame it on Hoops though.
England took two relatively small backrowers (Curry and Underhill) who play a very similar 'non-traditional' high energy game to Hooper but made it work.
Not gunna comment on conspiracy theories. Somehow doubt Rennie will give two shits about the Sydney Mafia though. He's an in demand coach that was slated for the All Blacks gig. I think he holds the balance of power there.
Slim 293
Stirling Mortlock (74)
For all the talk of Hooper being a non-traditional 7.........
Hooper recorded more pilfers/forced turnovers than Gill in their breakout season......... the year Hooper was first selected for the Wallabies by Dean.
Up the Guts
Steve Williams (59)
Probably a bit more of a reach suggesting there’re a bunch of men in black from NSW telling the coach who to select.
Oh it's very real. Even when a player is in fact playing for the Brumbies (as Hooper was when he made his debut in 2012 and started ahead of Gill), the selectors can still see past the jersey and to the player underneath, and where that player was born and raised.
It's why Cheika always liked LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto). Despite being a filthy Queenslander, he could acknowledge that he was really from Sydney so it was OK to keep picking him.
dru
David Wilson (68)
Double 6 v Double 7. Eddie is quite progressive in how he melds skills in a team, sometimes a disaster but he learns. hard not to like.
Agreed - I am looking forward to seeing how Rennie builds this team and the way it plays.
dru
David Wilson (68)
Wilson
Phil Kearns (64)
It's a ridiculous assertion, clearly they'd be men in blue.
Slim 293
Stirling Mortlock (74)
This will elicit a good response.........
Nic White should be the next Wallabies captain:
https://www.theroar.com.au/2020/05/13/why-nic-white-should-be-the-next-wallabies-captain/
Nic White should be the next Wallabies captain:
https://www.theroar.com.au/2020/05/13/why-nic-white-should-be-the-next-wallabies-captain/
Wilson
Phil Kearns (64)
It's not the worst option, particularly now that he's playing again and demonstrating some pretty good form. Does he have any experience as a captain?
