Wallabies 2020

[Froggy]

Harrison is like Foley in so much as he's a 10 who has a good running game, but he's a much stronger defender and has a much better kicking game. I agree Lolesio is ahead of Harrison at this point in time, but you would have to have BR's biases to say they were a country mile apart.
Unless two are too many Tahs (which I am sure they are for some on here) I don't think that will be a problem. Hooper will still be there (sorry haters) and Simmons is likely to do a Bradbury and make it by default, even though he would be behind Arnold, Skelton, Rodda, Coleman,Hocking and Phillip, all of whom have gone or are going overseas.
My back line would be McDermott, Lolesio, Korobieti, To'omua, TK, Wright, DHP.

 

[Brumby Runner]

The number of Tahs is not the essential problem. It is the individuals who are not the best in their spots who grate with e and I daresay a lot of other fans given the nature of a multitude of posts over the years.

Hopefully with the end of the Cheika era, this will disappear now.

The Tahs I believe will be in the mix, are:
HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes) - unfortunately has run into a couple of gooduns ahead of him, but only takes one injury, suspension or loss of form and he'll be there;
Swinton - in a purrple patch atm, but I sttill favour Valetini for the 6 spot;
Hooper - being seriously challenged by Liam Wright, but will be the early starting 7 at least;
Harrison - in the squad and might get game time if To'omua and/or JOC (James O'Connor) fail to fire, but behind Lolesio by a fair way;
Maddocks - best all round No 15 Tahs have had since Burke. Will be strongly contesting the 15 position.

 

[upthereds#!]

Banks was a dominant fullback for the dominant Australian team yet didn't make the Wallaby squad. Think we need to hold our horses a bit on Maddocks.

 

[Derpus]

The number of Tahs is not the essential problem. It is the individuals who are not the best in their spots who grate with e and I daresay a lot of other fans given the nature of a multitude of posts over the years.

Hopefully with the end of the Cheika era, this will disappear now.

The Tahs I believe will be in the mix, are:
HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes) - unfortunately has run into a couple of gooduns ahead of him, but only takes one injury, suspension or loss of form and he'll be there;
Swinton - in a purrple patch atm, but I sttill favour Valetini for the 6 spot;
Hooper - being seriously challenged by Liam Wright, but will be the early starting 7 at least;
Harrison - in the squad and might get game time if To'omua and/or JOC (James O'Connor) fail to fire, but behind Lolesio by a fair way;
Maddocks - best all round No 15 Tahs have had since Burke. Will be strongly contesting the 15 position.

Bit of Hyperbole in your Harrison and Maddocks comments me thinks. Lolesio is better at the moment - but there isn't that much in it. Maddocks has only played 1 game at fullback.

 

[TSR]

One player has led his team's attack to 5 or 6 wins out of 6 or 7 this year. The other has one win from the same number of games. Discussion is pointless at this stage.

I also fully expect Rory Arnold will be back for the tests. No need to get knickers in a knot over a return of Rob Simmons to the team.

BR - I don’t think this post really aligns with the general nature of your posting on here.

I haven’t gone back methodically - so apologies if I get some of the detail wrong - but based on what you have written previously you expect Slipper, Fainga’a, Ala'alatoa, Valetini, Powell, TK & Banks to be starting Wallabies whilst Sio, Swain, Samu, Simone, Wright (& Muirhead??) will all be in the mix.

On the Waratahs side I am pretty sure you have proposed that Hooper may get retained (but you would prefer Wright) and that they otherwise have some promising youngsters who might be test level down the track. You don’t rate Simmons, Hanigan, Gordon or Hunt and you think Beale is especially overrated.

Based on those ratings (the general gist of which I agree with) your comment suggests you think Lolesio should get the gig by virtue of ‘leading’ his team to more wins?

Don’t get me wrong - if your argument was that Lolesio is killing it as a rookie and is in the best form of any 10, then fine.

But if you think Lolesio & Harrison are getting an even chance to put ticks in the win column then I would suggest that you talk to whoever it is who normally posts under the handle Brumby Runner - because he doesn’t agree with you.

Edit: I did somehow miss you post above about Tahs players. But I think the gist is the same.

 

[Up the Guts]

Bit of Hyperbole in your Harrison and Maddocks comments me thinks. Lolesio is better at the moment - but there isn't that much in it. Maddocks has only played 1 game at fullback.

Best all round fullback since Burke is just a dig at Folau and Beale.

 

[eastman]

Folau was the best athlete Australian rugby has ever seen- his upside more than made up for kicking limitations. I agree that Burke was more rounded than KB (Kurtley Beale)- he even managed to transform into a solid 13 when he lost his pace (and shaved his head).

 

[BDA]

The 10 debate is a great one to have, and at this stage there is no right answer. You could tell me any of the four Super 10s will start the first Bledisloe and I wouldn't be shocked.

The boring answer is it's really too early to tell who is best for our Wallaby set-up. The conservative option is a JOC (James O'Connor)-To'omua 10/12 combination, but I've got no idea how safe Dave Rennie wants to play it. Is this the year to throw caution to the wind?

Lolesio is ahead of Harrison by a nose at the moment IMO. I like Harrison's game management a touch more than Lolesio's, but Lolesio seems just a bit more rounded in attack and defence so far.

Agree with all of this. I would have thought that Rennie wouldn't want to throw Harrison or Lolesio to the wolves too soon. I expect we'll see To'omua or JOC (James O'Connor) starting initially, letting the younger guys dip their toes in the test rugby waters as Rennie builds his side.

On the plus side Lolesio and Harrison are both genuine 10s. Hopefully gone are the days of the Wallabies choosing a 10 that is not a 10.

Ultimately I'd like to see JOC (James O'Connor) move to the Kurtley Beale super-sub role for the wallabies. He's a great option for the bench. He can play pretty much any position from 10 to 15, at a pinch. I don't think you'd ever win a world cup with him as your starting 10, but he certainly looks more comfortable there than he was back in 2013, and I'd describe him as a decent 10, certainly good enough to be an injury back up / slot in at 10 from time to time.

 

[wamberal]

Folau was the best athlete Australian rugby has ever seen

This is the most sweeping statement about rugby that Australia has ever seen.

 

[Braveheart81]

This is the most sweeping statement about rugby that Australia has ever seen.

4th all time on the Wallabies try scoring list and 1st all time on the Super Rugby try scoring list is a pretty good starting point.

He couldn't kick and he had some other deficiencies but he also had some skills and athleticism that were unmatched by anyone.

Plenty of people like to talk him down because he lacked skills in some of the teachable areas of the game but he excelled in the things that are completely unteachable.

 

[Silverado]

4th all time on the Wallabies try scoring list and 1st all time on the Super Rugby try scoring list is a pretty good starting point.

He couldn't kick and he had some other deficiencies but he also had some skills and athleticism that were unmatched by anyone.

Plenty of people like to talk him down because he lacked skills in some of the teachable areas of the game but he excelled in the things that are completely unteachable.

And that he played for Tahs. His social media skills didn't help. He's now re-signed big bucks with UK Super League contract so I guess his skills are valued by them and he's moved on. Perhaps we should too

 

[A mutterer]

Agree with all of this. I would have thought that Rennie wouldn't want to throw Harrison or Lolesio to the wolves too soon. I expect we'll see To'omua or JOC (James O'Connor) starting initially, letting the younger guys dip their toes in the test rugby waters as Rennie builds his side.

On the plus side Lolesio and Harrison are both genuine 10s. Hopefully gone are the days of the Wallabies choosing a 10 that is not a 10.

i think harrison has done pretty well behind a pack that is a fair way off being called dominant. i like both of these 10's and hope they get a decent chance to grow into their games.

 

[TSR]

At the end of the day this is one of those conversations which is fun to have, but premature in the context of Wallaby selection.

Prior to Super Rugby this year I would have said both To'omua & O’Connor we’re 12s and it wasn’t ideal to play them at 10, but pre-COVID both were playing well (and To'omua was one of our few shining lights at the WC albeit mostly from the bench).

I would strongly suspect that Rennie’s strong preference will be to go with experience and bring one or both of the young guys in slowly. However if JOC (James O'Connor) and To'omua are both not delivering at 10 what Rennie is looking for, Lolesio and/or Harrison are firing and particularly if he has Nic White back, I could see Rennie backing one of them to play between White, JOC (James O'Connor) & TK at 13.

 

[qwerty51]

4th all time on the Wallabies try scoring list and 1st all time on the Super Rugby try scoring list is a pretty good starting point.

He couldn't kick and he had some other deficiencies but he also had some skills and athleticism that were unmatched by anyone.

Plenty of people like to talk him down because he lacked skills in some of the teachable areas of the game but he excelled in the things that are completely unteachable.

There's some revisionist history for sure about Folau probably due to how he left the game. There was a top 10 cross code converts done the other day Planet Rugby and not a mention of Folau. He's the only convert you could say was the best player in his position at one stage of both codes.

 

[wamberal]

4th all time on the Wallabies try scoring list and 1st all time on the Super Rugby try scoring list is a pretty good starting point.

He couldn't kick and he had some other deficiencies but he also had some skills and athleticism that were unmatched by anyone.

Plenty of people like to talk him down because he lacked skills in some of the teachable areas of the game but he excelled in the things that are completely unteachable.

So? He had some amazing abilities, for sure. Rugby has been around at the international level for a very long time. To claim that any player is the best of all time is pretty arrogant. BTW, Super Rugby has been around for a bit over 20 years. Hardly "all-time".


I am not talking Izzy down. But any all-round evaluation of him as a footballer (let alone an athlete) needs to be a bit tempered with reality. Apart from his total inability to kick, his passing was pretty iffy, and he did not ever develop the instinct for the game that the great players have or had.


As for the athleticism bit, how do we compare the athleticism of players in different positions? Pocock for example was an amazing athlete in some respects. There have been plenty of others, in every position, with different athletic attributes.

 

[eastman]

This is the most sweeping statement about rugby that Australia has ever seen.

You do understand the concept of athlete as opposed to footballer right? Who is comparable?

It's not Marty Roebuck either.

 

[eastman]

I am not talking Izzy down. But any all-round evaluation of him as a footballer (let alone an athlete) needs to be a bit tempered with reality. Apart from his total inability to kick, his passing was pretty iffy, and he did not ever develop the instinct for the game that the great players have or had.

I know a few players who were involved in professional set-ups around Izzy, and they were all in awe of the things that he could do on a rugby field (including things in the gym/ training field that we didn't get the chance to see).

One interesting thing that was raised more than once was that he probably should have played outside centre, and most likely would have been world- class, but his freakish ability under the high ball meant that he was essentially forced to play fullback.

 

[Brumby Runner]

BR - I don’t think this post really aligns with the general nature of your posting on here.

I haven’t gone back methodically - so apologies if I get some of the detail wrong - but based on what you have written previously you expect Slipper, Fainga’a, Ala'alatoa, Valetini, Powell, TK & Banks to be starting Wallabies whilst Sio, Swain, Samu, Simone, Wright (& Muirhead??) will all be in the mix.

On the Waratahs side I am pretty sure you have proposed that Hooper may get retained (but you would prefer Wright) and that they otherwise have some promising youngsters who might be test level down the track. You don’t rate Simmons, Hanigan, Gordon or Hunt and you think Beale is especially overrated.

Based on those ratings (the general gist of which I agree with) your comment suggests you think Lolesio should get the gig by virtue of ‘leading’ his team to more wins?

Don’t get me wrong - if your argument was that Lolesio is killing it as a rookie and is in the best form of any 10, then fine.

But if you think Lolesio & Harrison are getting an even chance to put ticks in the win column then I would suggest that you talk to whoever it is who normally posts under the handle Brumby Runner - because he doesn’t agree with you.

Edit: I did somehow miss you post above about Tahs players. But I think the gist is the same.

I'd pick you up on one point TSR. I haven't said Lolesio (that I can recall) should be the Wallaby 10 (yet), just that he iswell in front of Harrison atm. I fully expect To'omua will fill thetest No 10 spot this year.

My gripe really is that some posters are quite vocal about Harrison being the best of the newbies when his form at the Tahs is nowhere near as impressive as Noah's at the Brumbies. Being an integral part of a successful team should not diminish his performances in any way. Should really be the opposite as his form is proven while with Will atm it is mainly speculation.

 

[wamberal]

You do understand the concept of athlete as opposed to footballer right? Who is comparable?

It's not Marty Roebuck either.

You do understand the concept of "all time", do you? As for the concept of "athlete" as opposed to "footballer": no, apparently I don't share your learned view.


But just on the subject of the vertical leap, (which apparently is the magic attribute), as my final contribution to this rather silly debate a couple of examples. No doubt you have taken them into account in your evaluation?

David Hillhouse had such an amazing vertical leap that the Wallaby coach at the time invited Test referees to watch him at training so that they would not penalise the side for lifting him.

Stephen "Skylab" Cutler was also a wonderful jumper, Mark Ella credited him with being the difference between the 1981 and Grand Slam winning 1984 Wallaby side - "his jumping in the lineouts was the difference". He was also a pretty handy 400 metres hurdler. No lifting back then, either.


Edward "Weary" Dunlop (a second rower, as we used to be called) held the Australian record for the standing long jump. Are these three "athletes"?

Michael Cleary was an actual athlete. Izzy was not. He was a footballer, with athletic abilities.

Thank you, and good night.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Best all round fullback since Burke is just a dig at Folau and Beale.

True, but each had significant weakness in their games. IF had issues with passing and kicking in general play. Beetle was very poor in defense as well as being a disruptive influence off the field.

In my view, Maddocks is already better than those two in those specific aspects. He is excellent (though not IF) under the high ball and has shown signs in the U20s and at wing in Super Rugby of his attacking prowess as well. I expect he will in time be regarded as up there with the best.