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Wales vs Australia, 5 November 2016, (1:30am 6 November AEDT) @ Millenium Stadium

PeterK

Alfred Walker (16)
Correct. We want/need them to work out how to counter our selections, not ours theirs.


The wallabies have been found wanting using the pooper against teams with good lineouts. They exploited that weakness.

Wales couldn't because they played 2 opensiders.

Struggling to win your own lineout is a recipe for disaster, you can't even get the advantage from penalties then.

They counter the pooper by kicking deep in touch , and pressure the lineout.
 

Rugbynutter39

Michael Lynagh (62)
Pooper was selected to start because Mumm serving a suspension. Will cheika drop Mumm out of the 23.....not sure...I am also not as anti Mumm as many on here but agree we should be looking at better long term options at 6.

I don't think McMahon or Pooper the long term answer there in terms of line out options that offers. Fardy is still probably an option there and thought he played ok when came on...but he ain't also getting any younger so would be good to see some younger 6 options who are also line out options emerge.
 

KOB1987

John Eales (66)
The wallabies have been found wanting using the pooper against teams with good lineouts. They exploited that weakness.

Wales couldn't because they played 2 opensiders.

Struggling to win your own lineout is a recipe for disaster, you can't even get the advantage from penalties then.

They counter the pooper by kicking deep in touch , and pressure the lineout.
I wasn't necessarily advocating the selection of the pooper, only that our selectors weigh up the pros and cons of our available players independent of the other side and then let them deal with whoever we choose. Obviously there is the occasional opponent that we need to consider our best options, but in general id just like us to settle on a 23 we run out against every tier 1 nation, the only tinkering being within the 23 and/or availability.
 

Lorenzo

Colin Windon (37)
Our best 15 needs a big 6 and 3 lineout options. There's no point picking a xv with the pooper and then relying on the bench for a proper 6 - even when things go south with the lineout/ruck we don't end up sending on subs until after 40mins.

I think we've been fucked at the lineout and the physical stuff far too many times playing two 7s that a win against a Wales side that basically watched us run by them shouldn't suddenly make us forget it.

I don't mind a horses for courses approach but we need a traditional backrow for at least England, SA and NZ.
 

ACT Crusader

Jim Lenehan (48)
Well done Wallabies. A much better all round performance. More confrontational at the ruck especially when the ball was pushed wide.

Kurindrani helped in that regard.

Folau's lack of passing game was exposed last night. Offload no problem, but he doesn't have that natural passing game and despite calls from some you, it does indicate why there has been a reluctance to move him to centre.

Even Kurindrani can pass both ways with confidence.
 

PeterK

Alfred Walker (16)
Folau's lack of passing game was exposed last night. Offload no problem, but he doesn't have that natural passing game and despite calls from some you, it does indicate why there has been a reluctance to move him to centre.

Even Kurindrani can pass both ways with confidence.

Totally disagree with this.

Folau passed 11 times none of them poor.
TK passed 6 times.

Did you miss the pass Folau gave to Hodge for his try?
 

BDA

Jim Lenehan (48)
Cheika has identified a handful of blokes whom many of us here were saying at the outset should have been tried. Giving him too much credit I believe - he has consistently shown a preference for established (older, out of form) players and has mainly acted only when injury has forced his hand.



DHP was exceptional under the high ball, and his combination with Folau at the back thwarted the Wales usual game plan of high balls leading to errors from which they kick their goals. Can't be too lavish in praise for both DHP and Izzy in the air.



I did not see any instances against Wales where Henry put the Wallabies under pressure through either poor positioning or missed tackles. Can you give instances please. On three occasions Henry was in support of the try scorer (Kuridrani, Hodge and Foley) and could have scored himself if the defense had caused those players to look for support. I can't remember any missed tackle in general play by Henry last night, and I was chuffed when he actually forced big George North into touch in one tackle. I agree he didn't cover himself with glory against the ABs but please provide specifics of where he went wrong to the detriment of the Wallabies' efforts last night.

- Re the Cheika comment, just to clarify my earlier post, I didn't mean to credit Cheika for unearthing those blokes. I just meant that he has now tried them out at test level and luckily for him it turns out they look to be right at home
- I think its a bit over the top to suggest Cheika has in fact been unfairly holding those guys back. He had a pack that was good enough to make it to the world cup final last year. common sense dictated that he not make too many changes immediately. Also for me I can't say I was ever completely sold that the likes of Timani or Arnold would be effective at test level. In fact quite frankly I'm pleasantly surprised. Other people (like yourself) might have picked them as automatic selections a year ago and if you did I guess you have a better eye for talent than I do. It didn't seem that obvious to me though. I think a lot of the time you never really know until you chuck these guys out there, which ones will stand out. How many great young super rugby players have been shown up at test level. I wasn't overly impressed with Arnold after his first few games, so I was definitely not sold. I'd have to agree with KOB that their introduction has been handled fairly well from my point of view.
re speight - I have a memory of him being caught out of the line in the second half but it was late and I was pretty drunk. I might rewatch the game tonight and ill see if I can give you some specifics. I'm probably being a bit critical but I was not impressed with his defensive work against the all blacks and remembered that when I saw him caught out of the line last night (again ill have to confirm). Also compared to DHP he had very little impact. I'm a speight fan so I would just like to see more out of him.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
Well I didn't expect that. I sat through it twice.

Immediate thoughts on the Wallabies:-
1) They played with the high tempo that they challenged the ABs with in the last test for the first 50. I feel Cheika again missed the replacement boat and was 10 minutes late with the replacements with a few obviously struggling after 50.
2) Accuracy in passing and breakdown work has improved out of sight since England. That is across the board as has been mentioned numerous times. Of particular note for me was the accuracy in Phipps passing game without any appreciable drop in the speed of his service.
3) After 50 minutes as mentioned above some players were stuffed and inaccuracy came in just as it did against NZ. In the lead up to the Welsh try the Wallabies put the ball down no less than three times and while they were able to cover it they lost a heap of ground. This happened because they stopped going forward and were avoiding the contact. Nobody forwards included went forward. Partly also due to the Welsh actually stepping up with fresh legs from that time.
4) I said after the last Bled test I thought the Wallabies had changed attacking philosophy and structure and that was seen again last night. No endless recycling of possession without looking to do something with the ball. It was two or three phases max before going wide, through the middle or over the top, all done with purpose and planning and everyone actually knew what was going on.
5) The commitment in defence was brilliant and it was organised, not that they were challenged much, but it was superbly displayed by Speight's covering of North and Frisby on Davis (?)
6) James Slipper just hasn't recovered from his injury issues. For the Reds and the Wallabies this year he has been a liability in the scrum and far from his best around the park. I hope a full off season can fix this because at he has the potential to be world class.

Wales:-
1) I have been saying since before the 2015 RWC that Gatland was stale and had achieved all he could with Wales. The game plan was self limiting in itself and of the players. For all the talk in media interviews about wanting to upskill and play a more dynamic game Wales are further in the hole than Australia in that regard having had Gatland in charge for far too long. One point that illustrates this really well was the number of breakdowns that the Wallabies had nobody in, including the tackler who'd rolled away and rejoined the line, and the Welsh had four or five standing having a cuddle over the ball(weren't rucks as the Wallabies never engaged) and the ball was still slow coming out.
2) Even given the points raised in (1) I was surprised at how limp the Welsh were. The one thing that Warren-ball is usually good at is limiting risk and covering for changes in the squad. Wales were plain terrible in the first 40. They just weren't in it, they were totally dominated.
3) With the points raised above comes some serious questions about selection that Wales really have to ponder. Questions about whether some players are capable of playing the upskilled/non-Warren-ball game that Wales simply must play to be competitive with anybody outside of the 6N. Players like Roberts, Biggar, all three starting front rowers and the second rowers that played today.

So in summary the Wallabies played the opposition they had and wiped the floor with them comprehensively. A bit concerning they again faded in the last 30 and the "finishers" again lacked a bit of impact (excepting Frisby in cover).

Its impossible and would be churlish to be negative in any way about that performance, however I am reluctant to re-write the report card for the season on the back of this game, where the opposition was so bad. So great day at work boys, the job's still in front of you to complete.
 

Micheal

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
I wasn't necessarily advocating the selection of the pooper, only that our selectors weigh up the pros and cons of our available players independent of the other side and then let them deal with whoever we choose. Obviously there is the occasional opponent that we need to consider our best options, but in general id just like us to settle on a 23 we run out against every tier 1 nation, the only tinkering being within the 23 and/or availability.

I think that we need to secure our own lineout ball and I don't think we have to go crazy with our selections to do so.

I think Arnold, Coleman, McMahon / Hooper / Pocock, McMahon / Hooper / Pocock, Timani is more than enough to do so (especially if McMahon is starting).

Ideally, I'd go for this against Scotland if Poey is out:

6. McMahon
7. Hooper
8. Timani

Although I could be tempted into playing Simmons at 6 if I was coach (just no Mumm please).

If Pocock is fit, I'd like to play:

6. McMahon
7. Pocock
8. Timani

And give Hooper a rest as he's played almost every minute of every game he's been available for at Super Rugby and Wallabies level now for more than a year.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
People continue to bag Mumm without really looking at what he provides, objectively.

In the days before he had his English rugby stint I was not a fan of his at any level, just totally ineffective. Since his return he has two things to his game that few in Australia actually provide. A 6 with a genuine lineout threat. (Fardy used to but has not at any stage this year). A genuine maul defence. The second point being the key for me when playing against a side with a dominant lineout and maul, such as South Africa. Mumm very regularly infiltrates and negates the opposition maul like no backrower in Oz has done since Mowen. The only other singularly effective anti maul player is Skelton because of his reach and weight, but fitness, lineout work and work rate issues make that a compromise too far. So in the cause of balancing the backrow, especially with the Pooper, Mumm fills a purpose.

Against Wales the Wallabies were not threatened really by the Welsh maul because it was seriously depowered and unorganised without Warburton and especially Wyn-Jones.
 

ACT Crusader

Jim Lenehan (48)
Totally disagree with this.

Folau passed 11 times none of them poor.
TK passed 6 times.

Did you miss the pass Folau gave to Hodge for his try?

Yeah I saw the pass, it was a simple short pass to the right that went all of a few meters to a free man inside.

What I'm talking about were at least two occasions I recall where a simple draw and pass would've been far more beneficial than just tucking it under the arm. He doesn't seem to be able to do longer passes on the run.

And on that Hodge try, it showed the value of him coming from depth in that formation. Better as a back 3 player than centre.
 
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Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
Yeah I saw the pass, it was a simple short pass to the right that went all of a few meters to a free man inside.



What I'm talking about were at least two occasions I recall where a simple draw and pass would've been far more beneficial than just tucking it under the arm. He doesn't seem to be able to do longer passes on the run.



And on that Hodge try, it showed the value of him coming from depth in that formation. Better as a back 3 player than centre.


Apart from Foley and Cooper (and maybe a couple of 9s) nobody in Australian rugby can pass on the run over any real distance. That doesn't preclude a move the 13 though as Kurindrani is not an effective passer and both are better than AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) was/is.
 

The sage

Vay Wilson (31)
People continue to bag Mumm without really looking at what he provides, objectively.

In the days before he had his English rugby stint I was not a fan of his at any level, just totally ineffective. Since his return he has two things to his game that few in Australia actually provide. A 6 with a genuine lineout threat. (Fardy used to but has not at any stage this year). A genuine maul defence. The second point being the key for me when playing against a side with a dominant lineout and maul, such as South Africa. Mumm very regularly infiltrates and negates the opposition maul like no backrower in Oz has done since Mowen. The only other singularly effective anti maul player is Skelton because of his reach and weight, but fitness, lineout work and work rate issues make that a compromise too far. So in the cause of balancing the backrow, especially with the Pooper, Mumm fills a purpose.

Against Wales the Wallabies were not threatened really by the Welsh maul because it was seriously depowered and unorganised without Warburton and especially Wyn-Jones.

On mum; he just lost my vote in the last wcf.
I don't really care about maul defence it was lack of effort n commitment.

His lack of trying or just giving up (on a number of occasions in the game) said to me he's not our man. Useful rugby player but just not at core wallabies level. I do grant his line out work is good but needs more heart around the field.

I would probably say the same about Simmons. Against top four nations wouldn't have either in the 23; outside top 4, could make a case for them in the 23, but not on the field at the same time.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Brumby Runner

Jason Little (69)
Correct. We want/need them to work out how to counter our selections, not ours theirs.

And precisely in what way would either of Mumm or Simmons enhance our carries in the middle of the park? Fardy showed in two or three good ground winning runs that he would complement both the hard slog and the lineout.
 

Brumby Runner

Jason Little (69)
Another area I think there has been a noticeable improvement in the Wallabies' play is in the structured defense. It seems that they have moved away from the sliding defense to a more direct in-your-face defensive pattern, and to very good effect imo.

There was one instance where our defensive line didn't match up man for man with the Welsh attack, towards the end of the game when TK had to come in off his man to take the ball runner who would otherwise have had a clear run to make territory or even reach the tryline. That in itself left an overlap out wide and the Welsh almost scored. But otherwise, I didn't see any obvious lapses in the structure.

On the other hand, the Welsh adopted the sliding defense on occasions, and that was exploited by TK in his run to the tryline. The winger who was marking him fell for the dummy because he had to also cover Speight on TK's outside while the sliding cover defense was slow in getting to TK.

I am not a fan of the sliding defensive pattern and am more than glad to see it dispensed with.
 

Joe Blow

John Hipwell (52)
His play at 8 for the Tahs was just woeful, just bad decisions and couldn't catch a ball, but for Southern Districts he was always very solid

Limiting his role at lock for Rebels appears to have got him over that; and now he appears to be not out of place in a Wobs jersey

Not sure I understand why you don't favour him FB. He is your type of player. He does his core jobs well with a high work rate and he is big. Nothing flashy about him at the moment but I suspect we will see more from him with ball in hand as time passes.
 

Dalai Ninja

Ward Prentice (10)
I'm inclined to think Holloway would make an excellent No 6 in the Jerome Kaino mould. But, of course, if that ever turns out it will be because that's what M Cheika had in mind the whole time and sent me telepathic messages to make sure I posted the idea on here.

Do you seriously believe the idea of Holloway at 6 originated with you, on here?
 

Dalai Ninja

Ward Prentice (10)
Not sure I understand why you don't favour him FB. He is your type of player. He does his core jobs well with a high work rate and he is big. Nothing flashy about him at the moment but I suspect we will see more from him with ball in hand as time passes.

I think fatprop's objection to him was that he was seriously flaky, but now he isn't.
 
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