VRU 2014

[swingpass]

given the speculation over on the rebels thread i thought we should start another.

so is there to be a further culling in VRU div 1 next year or will northern make a return ?

is the playing talent too concentrated in a couple of clubs ?

would any current first grade players make it into a melbourne squad for the NRC ?

over to the gaggers

 

[Baldric]

is the playing talent too concentrated in a couple of clubs ?

Yes, undoubtedly so. Melbourne and Quins are the leaders. They have numbers that are the envy of the other clubs. I dont know how the VRU can go about sharing talent the talent around. Hybrids have been tried and were not very successful. It is a problem.

On the bright side at first grade level the teams were mostly competitive. In the lower grades there were frequent blow-out scores which is a pity.

 

[KevinO]

Boroondara is trying to make a come back in Division 2. They have a whole new club board in place so it will be interesting to see how they get on.

 

[en_force_er]

On Prem grade numbers:
There's not meant to be any culling of numbers in 2014 Prem Grade, but I think it's very much a watch this space for 2015. There's all kinds of rumours but I don't know what to believe.

A read of Northern's website just then says:

Premier 1 status IF we have a Colts (U20) Team (2014/2015)​

So, calling all 19 & 20yolds join us & be part of a vibrant, growing club & help us get to Premier 1 division​

I take it that means they are planning a re-entry to premier grade in 2016, but it could mean for 2014 (doubt it though).

Yes, undoubtedly so. Melbourne and Quins are the leaders. They have numbers that are the envy of the other clubs. I dont know how the VRU can go about sharing talent the talent around. Hybrids have been tried and were not very successful. It is a problem.

On the bright side at first grade level the teams were mostly competitive. In the lower grades there were frequent blow-out scores which is a pity.

It's hard to actively share talent when Melbourne and Quins are not only successful but can incentivise players with jobs/small amounts of money. The only way for other clubs to compete is if a generous money source rocks up.

As far as lower grades go, I think the VRU need to look to the model that the VAFA, hockey, and soccer run where each grade has a firsts and a reserves and the big clubs can enter multiple grades. This however isn't really how rugby clubs the world over work.

 

[oztimmay]

Yes, undoubtedly so. Melbourne and Quins are the leaders. They have numbers that are the envy of the other clubs. I dont know how the VRU can go about sharing talent the talent around. Hybrids have been tried and were not very successful. It is a problem.

On the bright side at first grade level the teams were mostly competitive. In the lower grades there were frequent blow-out scores which is a pity.

Not sure on this one. Like I've said before a sustainable and balance competition will only make it better. Stacking a group of clubs with the Rebels feeder talent (EPS/WTS/fringe dwellers) doesn't do anything to get the crowds down to the local matches.

I thin the Hybrid idea was tried extensively with the Pillar cup and it never really worked. This might have been the downfall of Box Hill as i remember they donated a number of players to the Pillar team (most of the forward pack if I remember).

You might try designing EPS/WTS/potentials to certain clubs and review the roster on a yearly basis. The rebels may even consider extending the mandate for Rebel players to play in the local comp as opposed to SS or QLD premiership?

When is the VRU AGM again? Maybe it's time to put this to them?

 

[Train Without a Station]

It's hard to actively share talent when Melbourne and Quins are not only successful but can incentivise players with jobs/small amounts of money. The only way for other clubs to compete is if a generous money source rocks up.

The issue is not these clubs being able to attract the best players. Players will naturally be drawn to the most successful club. At MU we lost a 2012 player to Quins and that's life. Much like losing Michael Tavita, who left for the combination of money and a better chance to line up a contract in France.

What's hard to swallow is losing 2 promising young players to the reigning premiers so they can likely plays 2nds all season, considering they have the strongest 1st line up in the comp.

As far as lower grades go, I think the VRU need to look to the model that the VAFA, hockey, and soccer run where each grade has a firsts and a reserves and the big clubs can enter multiple grades. This however isn't really how rugby clubs the world over work.

Disagree completely. They already have these, and this is exactly where the talent stockpiling is coming from and great players are being encouraged to come across and word of players being paid even in the Unicorns 2nd Div teams.

 

[en_force_er]

Disagree completely. They already have these, and this is exactly where the talent stockpiling is coming from and great players are being encouraged to come across and word of players being paid even in the Unicorns 2nd Div teams.

I'm sorry I really don't get what you're trying to say.

Also there's nobody being paid to play Div 2 for Unicorns, that I'm sure of. There are blokes who are very good players and could easily play firsts elsewhere (Div 2A at Melb is around as good as their 2nds, not sure how they pick who plays in what team), but no paid players.

Also I think the Grades/Reserves structure would work well and ensure a fair competition for all teams, I'll go into more about the structure I'm thinking of tomorrow when I'm not wiped out.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Your comment that Melbourne's Div 2A team is about as good as their 2nds is what I'm getting it. By them having more grades they are able to stockpile players in those grades who would play at a higher level (i.e. a Div 1 grade) if Melbourne didn't have something like 6 senior times and they were forced to go to another club for a game.

My comment on remuneration is agreed purely based on rumour regarding a player who came to train at MU and then wasn't sighted until he came off the bench in Unicorns 2nds at the back end of the season after playing 2A for them all season.

What I'm getting at is that without Unicorns fielding anything beyond Div 1st to 4th grade it limits their numbers, and those players without a strong link to the club go to the nearest other club which assists in spreading players to fill 3 full grades at other clubs, rather than the farcical 2 to 2 and 1/2 grades which clubs like Endeavour Hills and Booroondara were fielding in 2012.

 

[en_force_er]

What I'm getting at is that without Unicorns fielding anything beyond Div 1st to 4th grade it limits their numbers, and those players without a strong link to the club go to the nearest other club which assists in spreading players to fill 3 full grades at other clubs, rather than the farcical 2 to 2 and 1/2 grades which clubs like Endeavour Hills and Booroondara were fielding in 2012.

6 is probably a bit much but I disagree with the notion that these players would just distribute themselves throughout the clubs, or that Melbourne would indeed even turn them away if they only had 4 teams.

The good players would stay because they want to be in a competitive environment and the lower graders would stay because they're mostly club loyalists.

A text book example is Boroondara, what happened to their players? One could presume they were either going to BH (as planned) or they would evenly disperse themselves. What actually happened in the majority of 3rd grade stopped playing (because they were clubmen), and their good players went to Quins and PH.

There's really no easy solution.

 

[swingpass]

There's really no easy solution.

and there's the rub. even in sydney, the strong clubs ie Sydney Uni, can attract more talent. so if Melb Uni, financially sound, with a pretty good coaching set up, strong colts sides, a vibrant off field culture, a strong coterie and the lure of touring, Intervarsity, The Laffin Cup, Australian Unis cant hold on to players what hope have the others.
looking at the team lists on the rebels/vru websites it seems clear that there is now a very strong PI flavour in Victorian Rugby and so i think local/national loyalties play a significant influence at many of the clubs. i think this means that the club strength may vary significantly from year to year, except at the established top three or four who have more to offer as a pathway and "fringe benefits".
i also cant see any easy solution, until the top tier teams become supersaturated with talent who can't get a game and go elsewhere.

 

[elementfreak]

Your comment that Melbourne's Div 2A team is about as good as their 2nds is what I'm getting it. By them having more grades they are able to stockpile players in those grades who would play at a higher level (i.e. a Div 1 grade) if Melbourne didn't have something like 6 senior times and they were forced to go to another club for a game.

I refereed both of those teams this year and the P2 team were clearly the stronger one. The Div2A team seemed to think they could get away with a lot of things because they seemed to think they were bigger than the league they were playing in, and all it did was turn them into a team of whingers.


I have spoken to a number of people around the club lands and it seems that Melbourne don't pay players, however they do provide the most professional environment for players to thrive. They have recovery sessions, top notch physios, new kit each year etc. If I were still playing, and was a decent player, I would probably aim to play for them.

 

[KevinO]

I have heard of Melbourne players being paid (very good source), not sure how much they received but it does happen in all sports no matter what people say.

 

[oztimmay]

Back when I last played some Box Hill players were paid. As I've said before it was mainly to cover the loss of wages (had a lot of tradies at the club). I would assume it still happens now and I'm not at all surprised by that fact.

 

[en_force_er]

and there's the rub. even in sydney, the strong clubs ie Sydney Uni, can attract more talent. so if Melb Uni, financially sound, with a pretty good coaching set up, strong colts sides, a vibrant off field culture, a strong coterie and the lure of touring, Intervarsity, The Laffin Cup, Australian Unis cant hold on to players what hope have the others.

Uni aren't exactly have nots, they have a strategy and it doesn't work too well.

They give out a lot of small (very small) 'scholarship' payments to Colts who are in tertiary education and after Colts most of them either stop playing or go to a different club.

It's good in theory though and I hope they see more retention from it in the future.

I have heard of Melbourne players being paid (very good source), not sure how much they received but it does happen in all sports no matter what people say.

Me too, but the official company line at Melbourne and Quins is that they don't pay players.

I think plenty of people within the club genuinely believe they don't pay players but it could be a case of the payments coming from a private source attached to the club, rather than directly from the club, or that they simply don't tell anyone because if player X has been there since juniors it doesn't make sense that player Y gets paid in his first season when they're of equal quality.

 

[swingpass]

Uni aren't exactly have nots, they have a strategy and it doesn't work too well.

They give out a lot of small (very small) 'scholarship' payments to Colts who are in tertiary education and after Colts most of them either stop playing or go to a different club.

It's good in theory though and I hope they see more retention from it in the future.

i wasn't crying poor, just saying that even with all that playing at Uni has going for it, if it cant hold on to players, what hope have Box Hill, Booroondara, Norths etc got

ps i am not certain about "a lot of very small amounts ..", but things may have changed since i was involved in actually doling out the money

 

[en_force_er]

i wasn't crying poor, just saying that even with all that playing at Uni has going for it, if it cant hold on to players, what hope have Box Hill, Booroondara, Norths etc got

ps i am not certain about "a lot of very small amounts ..", but things may have changed since i was involved in actually doling out the money

In 2011 I heard there was at least 10 getting varying amounts from a good source, but I also heard they may have tightened their belt since then.

Either way the Vic Colts league is a messy affair of poor player retention and broken promises. It's a real problem child.

 

[Baldric]

I think plenty of people within the club genuinely believe they don't pay players but it could be a case of the payments coming from a private source attached to the club

I have not heard about either club making direct payments to players, but I do know that some players are get employment offers from club members.

 

[swingpass]

on another rebels/vru related note. is there any word as to whether the fit but not in the "gameday 23" rebels will be playing Dewar Shield or FIFO'ing to Sydney and Brisbane again ?

 

[oztimmay]

on another rebels/vru related note. is there any word as to whether the fit but not in the "gameday 23" rebels will be playing Dewar Shield or FIFO'ing to Sydney and Brisbane again ?

i hope for the sake of Victorian Rugby they play in the local competition.

 

[elementfreak]

First draft of the draw should be out some time today.