Schadenfreude
John Solomon (38)
So stop the rule infringements. If you want less penalty goals fix the scrums.
Less points for a penalty will directly lead to more infringements.
Too many penalty goals
- Thread starter Karl
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So stop the rule infringements. If you want less penalty goals fix the scrums.
Less points for a penalty will directly lead to more infringements.
S
spooony
Guest
That is a very good point because these chaps are professional players. Keep the ball with the forwards for 5 minutes or so and normally you will not get away with being a man less but you will get a penalty as well which is points
Karl
Bill McLean (32)
Already agreed that dropping the points probably isn't the best idea, but the whole point of this thread is HOW you stop the rule infringements. What can be a disincentive without breaking the run of play so much? There will always be shots at goal from penalties, and that's fine, but it dominates games too often. And what do you think needs to be done to "fix the scrums"?
wamberal
Phil Kearns (64)
It's about time that some of our sides had the guts to kick for touch from a penalty and take the lineout option and attack early in the game as well as in the dying stages.
I would far prefer Australian teams to be losing gloriously than to be eking out a few points from kicks here and there, and going down in a close contest.
I would far prefer Australian teams to be losing gloriously than to be eking out a few points from kicks here and there, and going down in a close contest.
L
Linebacker_41
Guest
Scrums at top level should lose the long sequence of engagement. Let's go back to the old days where both packs set the scrum at their discretion. Once the scrum is stable the referee gives an indication that the ball can be put in and pushing can commence.
From a penalties perspective I used to play #7. It must be the kiwi father but I basically played on the edge of the rules and tried not to get pinged more than twice for the same penalty.
Unless we simplify our game to the level of rugby league, and let's face it we are all way too smart to do that, then penalties are just part of it. All teams need to have a sharp shooter in their team. If you look at the discipline the Reds last year in every game where there was a noted kicker you will see that they gave very few penalties away.
wamberal
Phil Kearns (64)
I am a Tahs fan and I have no problem with the kick ahead at all. If it had come off, the Tahs would have won and the Reds would have missed a bonus point. And it led to the most exciting period of the game, by far. Those last few seconds will be remembered long after all the penalty goals that won and lost games and spectators (mostly lost the latter, I would guess).
For the sake of the game, and for the sake of the Waratahs, they need to chance their arms. Nobody in the Sydney sporting market is interested in stodge.
S
spooony
Guest
Teams will be wary of playing in their own half where they are liable to penalties and points, and resort to kicking like we saw in round 1. You change 1 thing and another problem arises. That is rugby and the difference between a storyboard meeting and real life circumstances on a field. But they never learn.
W
wolverine
Guest
South Africa's Varsity Cup is trialling a new points system where the value of the penalty goal and dropped goal has been reduced to 2 points. Organisers recognise that Rugby should be about attempting to score tries, not setting up to score penalty goals. At least in soccer, teams aim to score first in open play, in a contested situation where the attackers needs to beat defenders: only a fraction of the time do soccer teams look to score from the penalty spot. It is also worth noting that soccer's popularity exceeds that of Rugby almost everywhere, except NZ and a couple of Pacific nations, so Rugby needs to attempt to make the sport more attractive to participants and viewers everywhere.
MajorlyRagerly
Trevor Allan (34)
Your first sentence is correct. As is the first half of your fourth. The rest makes bullshit look honest.
Do yourself a favour, watch league & leave rugby to the rest of us.
S
spooony
Guest
No. In Australia they want the teams desperately to score tries. I think that is why Australia plays the way they play because the have 3 or 4 sports competing for the little fans thats left. So its a notion that the sporting code with the better entertainment will prevail. Now Rugby has become boring as hell with penalties and I am sure they looking for quick solutions because every boring match = supporters lost to another competing code like AFL and League. Is this correct?
Here is some results back from the Varsity cup where they are experimenting with the reduce point system for penalties and more for a conversion
In the Varsity Cup, the conversion is now worth three points, the penalty goal and the drop goal two points.
Summary after 4 rounds:
Tries scored
2011: 39
2012: 50
28.2% increase
Penalties in game
2011: 183
2012: 193
5.5% increase
Penalty kicks aimed at goal
2011: 45
2012: 16
64.4% decrease
Yellow cards
2011: 3
2012: 3
No change
Total points scored
2011: 359
2012: 379
5.6% increase
http://www.sareferees.co.za/news/ref_news/2851284.htm
Schadenfreude
John Solomon (38)
Those (very small sample size and therefore worthless) statistics came out of a computer and can't be trusted.
S
spooony
Guest
You do not need a computer to add and subtract. Just half a education.
Karl
Bill McLean (32)
Assuming this is accurate, and I see no reason to doubt it, and admitting that it is a small sample size -
Tries scored
2011: 39
2012: 50
28.2% increase This is statistically significant
Penalties in game
2011: 183
2012: 193
5.5% increase No significant increase in penalties.
Penalty kicks aimed at goal
2011: 45
2012: 16
64.4% decrease This is hugely significant.
Yellow cards
2011: 3
2012: 3
No change
Total points scored
2011: 359
2012: 379
5.6% increase No significant change, but a difference in how it's comprised, for the better.
Sometimes what happens and what you think will happen are very different.
It's the problem with subjectively based predictions. Looks like the indications are good that reducing a penalty goal to two points with an increase in the value of a conversion to three (not something I had even considered) means that teams are going for more try opportunities and kicking for better field position instead of a penalty goal. That still advantages the attacking side while punishing the infringing team and does NOT seem to result in a rampant increase in breaches and infringements. Interesting.
This trial should be expanded and the results investigated further. You'd have to be defending a position on pig-headed principle not to agree with that much at least.
Tries scored
2011: 39
2012: 50
28.2% increase This is statistically significant
Penalties in game
2011: 183
2012: 193
5.5% increase No significant increase in penalties.
Penalty kicks aimed at goal
2011: 45
2012: 16
64.4% decrease This is hugely significant.
Yellow cards
2011: 3
2012: 3
No change
Total points scored
2011: 359
2012: 379
5.6% increase No significant change, but a difference in how it's comprised, for the better.
Sometimes what happens and what you think will happen are very different.
It's the problem with subjectively based predictions. Looks like the indications are good that reducing a penalty goal to two points with an increase in the value of a conversion to three (not something I had even considered) means that teams are going for more try opportunities and kicking for better field position instead of a penalty goal. That still advantages the attacking side while punishing the infringing team and does NOT seem to result in a rampant increase in breaches and infringements. Interesting.
This trial should be expanded and the results investigated further. You'd have to be defending a position on pig-headed principle not to agree with that much at least.
Slim 293
Stirling Mortlock (74)
The problem is those numbers don't reflect the game as a spectacle.
As already stated, more tries does not mean better game.
There's nothing wrong with the current scoring system, and like the ELVs it will probably bring new problems and not address the real issues such as breakdown consistency and scrum resets.
The significant part of that data is that there were more penalties awarded.
Penalty kicks have always been an important part of our game, and not every game needs to be a try fest.
That would be boring.
As already stated, more tries does not mean better game.
There's nothing wrong with the current scoring system, and like the ELVs it will probably bring new problems and not address the real issues such as breakdown consistency and scrum resets.
The significant part of that data is that there were more penalties awarded.
Penalty kicks have always been an important part of our game, and not every game needs to be a try fest.
That would be boring.
Karl
Bill McLean (32)
They don't reflect the game as a spectacle? 64% reduction in stoppages for penalty kicks at goal. Those kicks were obviously being made for touch to get a lineout deep in opposition territory or close to the line with the intention of going for a try. How is that NOT a better spectacle? You can't keep using this "Try fests can be boring line" as the sole plank for your resistance.
It did not turn into a "Try Fest" - it clearly increased attacking play and that would have made it far more interesting to watch.
The number of additional penalties was NOT significant- it's 5%. That's only 10 more penalties for the WHOLE COMPETITION, and 64% LESS of them resulted in restarts after a penalty goal attempt. They instead resulted in additional pressure and attacking rugby.
It did not turn into a "Try Fest" - it clearly increased attacking play and that would have made it far more interesting to watch.
The number of additional penalties was NOT significant- it's 5%. That's only 10 more penalties for the WHOLE COMPETITION, and 64% LESS of them resulted in restarts after a penalty goal attempt. They instead resulted in additional pressure and attacking rugby.
Dam0
Dave Cowper (27)
The trial results are interesting so far. Some of the results are not what I would have expected. This suggests that a further trial of this scoring system is necessary. I would like to see it in at least 2 or 3 competitions at a reasonable level before we can make a real assessment. Perhaps next years ITM Cup, Sydneys club competition, and a second division UK tournament could be ideal for further testing.
It may take time for coaches to analyse the effects of the rule changes - further research needs to be done.
It may take time for coaches to analyse the effects of the rule changes - further research needs to be done.
S
spooony
Guest
They question stats from that rugby games yet they use same type of stats to complain about the penalties.
I totally agree with what you said. Those stats are a sample but its to show how the trail of that scoring system is doing so far. Same as a half time report
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