Time to throw out the bath water

[Train Without a Station]

Slipper.

As previously mentioned. Alexander is there by virtue of no other challengers. Kepu has been inconsistent, improving and worsening the scrum with his presence.

I probably prefer Kepu but I'm guessing the logic is, he's mud too. No matter what, our tighthead will suck and get dominated so pick the bloke he considers best around the park to try and at least make up for it.

 

[Train Without a Station]

the major issue for me is that this ploy of 'slightly inferior in the scrum to gain someone better around the park' has failed repeatedly for the last decade and has gained us a reputation for being so poor in the scrum that if refs are unsure they just assume we are the weaker scrum.
and its not going away while we continually pick our best scrummagers on the bench
i actually have a massive problem with our scrum not being demolished last weekend because its going to be the one example where we were'nt smashed which justifies us playing weak scrummagers for another year

I disagree. I believe it's still in place because the gap between the 2 isn't as much as we think it is, and therefore there is no benefit picking the better scrummager, because we are going to get dominated anyway.

It's not like dominate Australian scrummaging props are being ignored. They just don't seem to exist. Due to that we're just trying to make the best of a bad situation.

 

[Bairdy]

And now we have the sorry situation where our props are average at the scrum (an improvement), and no longer as great around the park.

As you say, TWaS, it's not like we can dispose of our current props and pick the best scrummaging props who are eagerly awaiting in Oz, because the reality is they don't exist. Throwing names around like Sio, Manu, T. Smith, Faulkner, R. Smith etc. is a fun exercise, but these guys are arguably no more cut out for international rugby than the aforementioned props we have on tour.

But we do need a cultural shift by bringing in scrum specialists to work with the Super franchises, or earlier than that, at the youth level, so we can bring through a bunch of hard as nails, cauliflower earred props, rather than number 8s turned props

 

[jay-c]

I disagree. I believe it's still in place because the gap between the 2 isn't as much as we think it is, and therefore there is no benefit picking the better scrummager, because we are going to get dominated anyway.

It's not like dominate Australian scrummaging props are being ignored. They just don't seem to exist. Due to that we're just trying to make the best of a bad situation.

personally i feel robinson is a far superior scrumager to slipper however i understand your rational and it is why i believe we continue to persist with our current front row
one thing i feel people underestimate however is the attitude of every other nation playing rugby that picks their front rowers on scrumaging ability. im sure they see our 'mobile prop' ploy as an attempt to minimise the importance of the scrum > id go so far as to assume they think its 'cheating'
by doing it we are pissing off everyone (including the refs)
i also think that when we run out with mobile props the refs assume we are going to be weaker in the scrum and this is why we lose the 50/50 calls

 

[jay-c]

it also leads to the situation we find ourselves in where we are picking our 6 because our 4 cant do his job and we are picking our 4 because our 1&3 cant do their job<> its simply not going to work

 

[Braveheart81]

The thing I'm most confused by is how we haven't tried to play Robinson and Slipper as our starting combination.

Alexander could be the reserve LHP and Kepu the reserve THP.

Robinson has consistently shown himself to be a better proposition at scrum time than Slipper at LHP and Alexander has generally shown himself to be the weakest of all four props in the scrum.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Braveheart I agree with the suggestion to be honest. There must be some significant reason considering Slipper played THP under Link for the best part of the last couple of seasons.

Jay-C I don't think we are picking our 6 based on that. It helps, but a lock come 6 is what we are needing around the park too.

The comments section of the team lists and match reports laments Hooper's lack of size, despite his enormous work rate, than derides the decision to pick bigger players that can play lock at 6 in order to do the tight stuff. It appears bigger is better when one of our best performers is small, but not if the player chosen does have the size.

 

[BPC]

Slipper.

As previously mentioned. Alexander is there by virtue of no other challengers. Kepu has been inconsistent, improving and worsening the scrum with his presence.

I probably prefer Kepu but I'm guessing the logic is, he's mud too. No matter what, our tighthead will suck and get dominated so pick the bloke he considers best around the park to try and at least make up for it.

Except that Slipper's involvement around the park has often involved him being out of position in defence and he hasn't produced many useful runs. Alexander's involvement outside the scrum has been even weaker. Slipper has been one of the players down on form (Alexander never had much form to begin with) and everyone has watched our scrum become a liability yet Link persists with this plan of mobile props over scrummagers.

There isn't much between Slipper and Kepu at tighthead, but everyone seems to agree that Robinson is the superior loosehead. It is boggling that Link hasn't at least tried Robinson/Moore/Slipper or even Robinson/Moore/Kepu.

 

[jay-c]

far too often i see slipper popping up in the outside backs slowing the play down> at least alexanders runs are in tight and generally not more than one or two out from the ruck
drives me insane watching slipper take the ball on the wing in slow motion

 

[BPC]

far too often i see slipper popping up in the outside backs slowing the play down> at least alexanders runs are in tight and generally not more than one or two out from the ruck
drives me insane watching slipper take the ball on the wing in slow motion

I agree. It frustrates the hell out of me when I see Slipper on the wing. Who does he think he is, a hooker?

 

[Brumby Runner]

And now we have the sorry situation where our props are average at the scrum (an improvement), and no longer as great around the park.

As you say, TWaS, it's not like we can dispose of our current props and pick the best scrummaging props who are eagerly awaiting in Oz, because the reality is they don't exist. Throwing names around like Sio, Manu, T. Smith, Faulkner, R. Smith etc. is a fun exercise, but these guys are arguably no more cut out for international rugby than the aforementioned props we have on tour.

But we do need a cultural shift by bringing in scrum specialists to work with the Super franchises, or earlier than that, at the youth level, so we can bring through a bunch of hard as nails, cauliflower earred props, rather than number 8s turned props

The consensus is that our present crop of props are sub-standard at scrum time, and probably offer very little around the park as well. I understand the argument that the possible replacements haven't shown that they are any better, but I lament the lost opportunity of giving one or two of them a chance to show what they can, or might be able to do by not including them in the EOYT. It will be very late in the day come 2014 mid year tests to start trying to find replacements and to give them adequate time to develop if we still think the present group are lacking.

Of the present lot, I'd also like to see Robbo start at LH and Slipper at TH. Ben Alexander has always been a better LH imo and should be tried as Robbo's backup.

Or, a thought from left field. The better TH props seem to be of the smaller, stockier build, eg Castrogiovanni, Jones. Would Robbo make a good TH as he has a similar build that would presumably allow him to get under most opposing LHs? We might then form a scrum that at least met fire with fire.

 

[Braveheart81]

but I lament the lost opportunity of giving one or two of them a chance to show what they can, or might be able to do by not including them in the EOYT.

We have one of those players on the tour and so far he hasn't had a chance. Hopefully Link gives Ryan at least one game starting and one game off the bench to make the tour worthwhile, but so far it doesn't look like he intends to spread the playing time around substantially.

Sio has played a few tests this year and Anae has had exposure to the Wallaby set up by being a member of the squad through the Rugby Championship.

Overall it's a reasonable representation of new players this season providing Ryan gets a go on this tour.

I think the days of 40 man EOYT squads and mid week games is sadly gone due to cost and time restraints so it's unlikely that the EOYT will ever be a real development tour again.

 

[Train Without a Station]

The consensus is that our present crop of props are sub-standard at scrum time, and probably offer very little around the park as well. I understand the argument that the possible replacements haven't shown that they are any better, but I lament the lost opportunity of giving one or two of them a chance to show what they can, or might be able to do by not including them in the EOYT. It will be very late in the day come 2014 mid year tests to start trying to find replacements and to give them adequate time to develop if we still think the present group are lacking.

Of the present lot, I'd also like to see Robbo start at LH and Slipper at TH. Ben Alexander has always been a better LH imo and should be tried as Robbo's backup.

Or, a thought from left field. The better TH props seem to be of the smaller, stockier build, eg Castrogiovanni, Jones. Would Robbo make a good TH as he has a similar build that would presumably allow him to get under most opposing LHs? We might then form a scrum that at least met fire with fire.

Lost opportunity? They have had a whole Super Rugby season for that this year. The reason they aren't there is they gave no indication that they can perform the same level or any better during that time. Sio was the form prop, got picked, failed and has been sent back to the Brumbies to improve before.

Castrogiovanni is bigger than the Italian loosehead and Adam Jones is something like 130kg. Nothing small about him. It's not like Robbo has been absolutely crushing opposition in his time on the park. He's been better than Slipper at loosehead, but adequate at best.