Time to throw out the bath water

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Let go of Horwill. Honestly…he's not much more than standard Test player. Not great, not outstanding……he's standard. Even when fit.

I would have vehemently disagreed with you a year ago, BR, but I think you might be right. He's lost his mojo big time and we need someone to be that big aggressive lock who worry opposition coaches. Unfortunately for Kev I don't think he'd worry the coach of Rockingham 4th Grade right now.

 

[Forcefield]

It's amazing how uninspiring our pack is at the moment. Hooper and Fardy look like the only guys who actually look any good. And unfortunately for both of them, they also look like they are punching above their weight. Normally no matter how bad the rest of the team looks, at least our backrow is kicking ass.

I guess the good news is that if we get our first choice backrow back and Horwill returns to some semblance of form, we will turn those games like last weekend's into wins.

Jones just doesn't perform at Scrum time when playing 2nd row. Absolutely no problems with him playing at 6, but I (personally) don't like him playing more than 20-30 minutes at lock except in the case of injury.

What do you have to base that on? People used to hang shit on Nathan Sharpe at scrum time. He's gone now and it seems like our scrum is worse. To be fair, we've only really seen scrumming for the Rebels and you guys have had some pretty average props. Not that I'm arguing- I think he should establish himself as a 6.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Ok TWAS, I'll see if I can throw some light on the matter.

I believe the backline needs very little tweaking. It is pretty good as is and seems to be developing with more game time, but in reality we could expect at least two changes to be made as Speight and Beale become eligible or fit and healthy. Moggy might also force his way back in as fullback cover.

I do see a need for significant change in the forwards. Some changes will take care of themselves, being Pocock and Higgers imo. Both the front row and the second row need some drastic action. I do think Robbo needs to come into the starting lineup and be given first go at the LH position. I would rather have Sio as backup LH because by RWC time I think he will be indispensible. Slipper's best option in my opinion is at TH but he may not even consistently perform there, so we need to be bringing one or two others through just in case. I see these as being Dan Palmer and Salesi Manu. The current second row pairing is the most under-performing pair I can remember seeing in 20 - 30 years watching. Timani just doesn't cut it at test level. Tried and found wanting on many occasions. Kev is not playing at the required standard either atm. This might be due to injury; time will tell. If Horwill doesn't soon make a full recovery, with the RWC in mind, we will need to be establishing a whole new second row, including reserves.

In summary, I see the need to find two new starting props and two new starting second rowers. On top of that we should be looking for at least two or three reserve props (though Slipper might be one of those), two or three new second rowers, and another couple of back rowers at least to back up Fardy/Pocock/Higgers.

Then we have the likely inclusion of a couple at least new backs.

So who are the going to jettison to bring in maybe 10 - 12 new bodies? Seems like a lot of change in the wind to me.

What I'm getting at though who do we replace them with who isn't already injured or failed?

In the front row Palmer is gone, Manu whilst I noticed and thought looks ok has done nothing to warrant a chance and Sio looked the goods, then arguably did less than Slipper in his multiple games for the Wallabies. We have 2/3 of one of the strongest Super Rugby front rows now. I don't see any of the other blokes who have been scrumming like they are on ice skates all year making a huge difference.

Simmons and Horwill have been one of the stronger second row combinations we have. Carter has shown he is worthy of a chance yes, and Pyle has been noticeable but there is doubt over whether he is up to it and is injured anyway.

In the backrow Pocock, Higgers, Alelua, Palu and whoever else are injured, Hooper and Fardy have been our 2 best performers so I can't see massive improvement there, because the supposed guns we have on the sidelines are likely to replace them, and suffer the same issues of lack of support.

I agree on the backs. Genia has been fucking putrid, but White has been average other than his run on debut. Never thought I'd say it, but maybe Phipps is worth a start?

As for 10-12-13: Cooper, To'omua and Kuridrani seems to be getting better together, I'd love to see more work on the defence of them but there appears to be a good balance there.

Back 3 is maybe a bit up in the air. Izzy has been very good as a player, but perhaps not as good when judged solely as a fullback, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) whilst not the greatest winger in the world, I'd like to see 2 wingers playing the house down to replace him as he does offer a fair bit, and then there is Cummins/Tomane on the other pick and swing who have both shown a bit in their chances.

I guess what I'm getting to is perhaps Sio might be worth another crack, but he looked to be the form Aussie Loosehead and got chewed up a bit, and Carter possibly. At the same time Simmons has been our best lock this international season and Horwill has been our best lock in years and fully fit will be our best. Other than that, nobody is actually knocking on the door so not sure what there is to change.

 

[Brumby Runner]

I guess what I'm getting to is perhaps Sio might be worth another crack, but he looked to be the form Aussie Loosehead and got chewed up a bit, and Carter possibly. At the same time Simmons has been our best lock this international season and Horwill has been our best lock in years and fully fit will be our best. Other than that, nobody is actually knocking on the door so not sure what there is to change.

Well, I sincerely hope that time and form in the Super comp next year proves otherwise. or we can kiss farewell to any chance of being competitive at the RWC if we depend on the current lot.

Injuries aside, I am really confident we can put together a much more competitive side with the likes of Sio, Manu, Smith, Siliva, Pyle, Jones, Carter, Sexton, Pocock, Higginbotham, Aeulua and maybe Palu and TPN added to Robbo, Moore, Fardy, Hooper, Gill and maybe Horwill and Mowen. Include Godwin, Speight and maybe Beale and Mogg to the backline and we have the makings of a very good side, so long as they are given the right opportunities and proper coaching (most importantly).

 

[Bullrush]

I would have vehemently disagreed with you a year ago, BR, but I think you might be right. He's lost his mojo big time and we need someone to be that big aggressive lock who worry opposition coaches. Unfortunately for Kev I don't think he'd worry the coach of Rockingham 4th Grade right now.

Yep. He would be lucky to be on the NZ or SA bench. He's one of your over-rated players who is picked for lack of any other contenders with either form or experience.

 

[BDA]

I don't see why people don't rate Simmons. He's a great lineout tactician and puts a lot of pressure on the opposition throw ins.

Same with Kepu, to a lesser extent. Id say he's clearly our best TH at scrum time. Average at best around the park but look at Adam Jones FFS. There is a reason he is so highly regarded and its not his linking play or work rate.

Next year will be very interesting for Aussie rugby because I really think no one is safe, at least in terms of the forward packs. The next crop of players can see that the likes of Horwill and Alexander aren't impressing and hopefully that creates some competition for those places.

 

[Braveheart81]

In my opinion Kepu has actually been reasonably good around the park when he's come on as a replacement in recent tests.

Now this is totally based on how bad Slipper and Alexander have been, but comparably, he's doing well.

Simmons has easily been the Wallabies form lock in 2013. That's also not saying a whole lot as Horwill, Timani and Douglas have been poor.

I think we improve our side by making incremental changes and trying to replace the poorest performing players.

It's more difficult when we're on tour and don't have unlimited replacements available but I fail to see how dropping Alexander, starting Kepu and bringing Ryan to the bench and dropping Timani, starting Douglas and Simmons at lock and putting Horwill to the bench isn't worth trying.

 

[Richo]

I think we improve our side by making incremental changes and trying to replace the poorest performing players.

It's more difficult when we're on tour and don't have unlimited replacements available but I fail to see how dropping Alexander, starting Kepu and bringing Ryan to the bench and dropping Timani, starting Douglas and Simmons at lock and putting Horwill to the bench isn't worth trying.

According to Link, the front row is "improving" -- so it must just be those dastardly refs that are causing all the problems. Now, I knowing about 0.00000000001% of what Link does about front row play (and you could probably add in a few more zeros there), but I have just watched our scrum get dominated for the vast majority of ten games in which Slipper and Alexander were both starting. Surely this is the game to see if we do better without getting smashed in the scrum for the first 50 minutes?

 

[BDA]

I'm really confused as to what I saw going on at scrum time last week. We looked very solid on our own ball. I cant remember more than 1 or 2 occasions when we were actually marched backwards. Most of it was the scrums being turned or pushing side ways and every time the ref blew a penalty for England. On the other hand when the Wobs got a push on the ref simply reset. Alexander was yelling at the ref all game that Vunipola wasn't pushing straight.

Clearly Alexander and Slipper were poor on saturday and England were stronger in that area, but I think we are seeing a return of what was occurring back in 2007-2008 when the NH refs simply see every scrum as an Aussie infringement. Look at the games where we have been blown off the park this year and both were NH refs. The Lions tour was a fairly even contest in the scrums until Romain Poite stepped up. Granted Alexander was shit in that game, but Corbs had a field day with Poite.

If the wobs want to win back some credibility in that area they should be playing the likes of Robinson, TPN and Kepu, not alexander.

 

[Braveheart81]

@BDA - I agree.

Perceptions are important and currently our scrum is perceived as being weak and the cause of just about every scrum infringement.

Whether or not that is true is largely irrelevant for the time being. Expecting our scrum to be treated more favourably whilst we're picking the same front rowers who are being widely penalised by referees is stupid.

Something has to change and it's foolhardy to expect that the change is going to come from the referees on a week to week basis.

 

[A mutterer]

it baffles me how link can talk about improvements in our front row without his tongue stuck firmly to his cheek.

alexander has been well and truly dusted so far, and i'd argue that his performance has been consistently worse than big kev's.

while the refereeing on the weekend was questionable, it should never have been put in the ref's hands. the forwards should be battering opposition players in the breakdown and putting the hurt on the opposition. they should stop demonstrating their love of meerkats by sticking their head in the air and enjoy the chance to demonstrate their muscularity and dominate the opposition.

i think paddy ryan improved over the s15 season but is still a work in progress. some of the newer players should be thinking to themselves that if they start smashing other forwards and players that they would definitely be in the front for june next year.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Well, I sincerely hope that time and form in the Super comp next year proves otherwise. or we can kiss farewell to any chance of being competitive at the RWC if we depend on the current lot.

Injuries aside, I am really confident we can put together a much more competitive side with the likes of Sio, Manu, Smith, Siliva, Pyle, Jones, Carter, Sexton, Pocock, Higginbotham, Aeulua and maybe Palu and TPN added to Robbo, Moore, Fardy, Hooper, Gill and maybe Horwill and Mowen. Include Godwin, Speight and maybe Beale and Mogg to the backline and we have the makings of a very good side, so long as they are given the right opportunities and proper coaching (most importantly).

You are plucking names without any basis in Manu, Smith, Silivia and Sexton though. Even then To'omua has been close to a stand out at 12 so I can't see we are missing Godwin, much of Speight when you consider recent performances by AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and Tomane.

You're throwing up a bunch of names but these guys have generally performed the same, less (Manu, Smith, Silivia) or not at all (Sexton) at Super Rugby level. Suddenly they're our saviours and scrap this lot, get them on deck when we can?

The fact of the matter is, where we are missing most of our best players, the players currently selected are our best performing. The sad fact is unfortunately, our worst performing players (i.e. Slipper, Alexander, Horwill, Mowen, Genia) are basically still there, because we just don't have great performing options.

Perhaps Benn Robinson should be starting at 1 - though it's not like he has been the saviour when he has come off the bench each game, and perhaps Carter was worth a look at lock, but it would be a massive punt and it's not like Horwill and Douglas haven't had good games this year too.

I can't help but think that in from your perspective, a lot of these players are gaining from not playing as you haven't had the chance to see them fail, and are just building them up in your mind. There's not magic solution. Barring a couple of 50/50 calls, this is close to the best squad fit and available, and other than 8, the players that are fit have been in our best each week.

 

[Richo]

If the wobs want to win back some credibility in that area they should be playing the likes of Robinson, TPN and Kepu, not alexander.

It's clear to everyone that there is a perception problem -- that's implicit in Link even making his complaint to the IRB. So if there's a perception problem, you go out and change perceptions. With Alexander, it's clear that NH refs, in particular, have decided that he cannot scrummage. Bite the bullet. It's a lost cause trying to change the minds of half the elite-level refs.

 

[daz]

13 could be the smokey position for mine. I am not saying at this moment he is the right fit but Mitch Inman has a massive opportunity to stake a claim for the Wallaby 13.

No-one has more man love for Mitch than me, but I am closer to agreeing with Slim than you, Ruggo. Mitch is a distance off getting a call-up right now.

Having said that, and I have said this ad infinitum, if Mitch has a cracking year in 2014 he will be a certainty to make the wider Wallaby squad.

Personally, I think Mitch might be a real chance to feature in 2015, including the RWC. That is 2 more seasons of development under his belt, which for my money should place him in prime territory with all the critical elements lining up - age, experience, capability and hunger.

And this might sound silly, but he probably needs to be a bit more adaptable to enhance his attraction and value to the Wallabies. One way of doing that would be to move into a 12 spot if required. I would have no problem if he added that particular string to his bow. Any bloke that could play 12-13 (even if from the bench) would be worth his weight in, well, Wallaby Gold.

 

[BDA]

I'm kinda surprised that Pek Cowan wasn't called up this year (injured?). He had a great Super season this year, both in the scrums and with good involvement around the park. He's a tough nut that seems to be growing into a solid LH. I distantly remember him scrumming Paddy Ryan into the ground in the later rounds of the Super comp this year. If he has a good season next year for the Force I'd like to see his hat back in the ring.

I think Link is sending the wrong message by not dropping Alexander and Slipper. It must be "step up or move aside". FFS he dropped Robinson immediately for some perceived weakness in his workrate. Why shouldn't Alexandar face the same time on the sideline

 

[BDA]

The fact of the matter is, where we are missing most of our best players, the players currently selected are our best performing. The sad fact is unfortunately, our worst performing players (i.e. Slipper, Alexander, Horwill, Mowen, Genia) are basically still there, because we just don't have great performing options.
.

From my point of view, I see all of these guys, with the exception of Alexander, as guys that should be involved in our world cup tilt. But they are clearly all out of form at the moment.

Mowen and Slipper played some great rugby earlier this year but their form has dropped off terribly. This is just a theory but I suspect the magnitude of the whole Lions tour (coupled with a whole new coaching regime) has left a lot of our more established players a bit flat.

It's just a theory but there is probably something to that.

These are all good players (bar Alexander) that should all be sidelined until they get their mojo back

 

[Zander]

Scott Sio and Paddy Ryan must be shaking their heads.

 

[boyo]

I think that one of main problems that people have with Simmons is that he tries to act tough. The foul play and cheap shots really grate.

 

[Brumby Runner]

You are plucking names without any basis in Manu, Smith, Silivia and Sexton though. Even then To'omua has been close to a stand out at 12 so I can't see we are missing Godwin, much of Speight when you consider recent performances by AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and Tomane.

You're throwing up a bunch of names but these guys have generally performed the same, less (Manu, Smith, Silivia) or not at all (Sexton) at Super Rugby level. Suddenly they're our saviours and scrap this lot, get them on deck when we can?

The fact of the matter is, where we are missing most of our best players, the players currently selected are our best performing. The sad fact is unfortunately, our worst performing players (i.e. Slipper, Alexander, Horwill, Mowen, Genia) are basically still there, because we just don't have great performing options.

Perhaps Benn Robinson should be starting at 1 - though it's not like he has been the saviour when he has come off the bench each game, and perhaps Carter was worth a look at lock, but it would be a massive punt and it's not like Horwill and Douglas haven't had good games this year too.

I can't help but think that in from your perspective, a lot of these players are gaining from not playing as you haven't had the chance to see them fail, and are just building them up in your mind. There's not magic solution. Barring a couple of 50/50 calls, this is close to the best squad fit and available, and other than 8, the players that are fit have been in our best each week.

We will have to disagree. I don't accept the present bunch is the best available, and I am dead set convinced they are not good enough to front up to the RWC.

 

[Groucho]

The forwards who obviously don't cut it at test level at the moment include Mowen (a fairly good captain, but zero impact as a player in tests), Alexander, Slipper, and sadly big Kev. That doesn't mean they can't cut it. Slipper has time on his side as a prop. Simmons has stepped up slightly. Kev may come back. We really need the starting back row back, and to play Robinson plus one other at prop. I don't see any reason to drop Ryan: he's one of the credible alternatives, along with Sio. What we really need for them is to play better: they all have talent. This group in various combinations has beaten the Dimness and dominated the Boks in the past. Maybe we should drop the coach.