This is a fucking disgrace

[formeropenside]

ARU boss John O'Neill guarantees Western Force will survive
By Wayne Smith

February 24, 2009 The Australian Rugby Union will meet this week with the Rugby Union Players Association to consider the introduction of a player draft, with ARU boss John O'Neill giving an ironclad guarantee the Western Force will not be allowed to fail.

The confirmation on the weekend Matt Giteau will leave the Force at the end of the Super 14 campaign has given rise to doomsday predictions about the future of the Perth-based franchise.

The widespread fear is that with 17 Force players coming off contract at the end of the season, among them exciting young Australia stars Drew Mitchell and James O'Connor, Giteau's departure - coming on top of the independent inquiry into coach John Mitchell's management style - could trigger a mass exodus from the club.

Should that happen, the Force would struggle to lure quality replacements to Perth because, now that third-party agreements are drying up in the harsh financial climate, the club would be able to offer no more money to potential recruits than they are receiving from the east-coast clubs.

However, O'Neill was adamant the Force would ride out the storm, and said senior ARU manager Peter Friend would meet RUPA boss Tony Dempsey "in the next couple of days" to determine what help could be provided.

"We are not going to let the Western Force implode," O'Neill said.

"Rugby's presence in Perth and Western Australia is extremely vital to us."

It is no less vital to broadcaster Fox Sports, which uses evening matches in Perth to provide a seamless bridge of consecutive televised games, starting in New Zealand and ultimately ending in South Africa.

The previous ARU administration led by Gary Flowers, which was in office when the Force was given Australia's fourth Super franchise in 2005, has come under increasing criticism for providing no start-up assistance to the new club at the time.

But O'Neill said Flowers and the then high performance unit manager Brett Robinson were not to blame.

"The prototype developed by Flowers had a far greater element of ARU control over the new club but the ARU board handed over management to Rugby WA," O'Neill said.

"And the early model developed by Robinson contemplated a draft in terms of bringing order to the transfer of players to Perth or Melbourne (the other city in contention for the licence) without unduly eroding the strengths of the three existing franchises."

O'Neill acknowledged no draft system could be put in place without the co-operation of the RUPA.

Indeed, under the terms of the collective bargaining agreement, a player draft is specifically banned at present.

Dempsey said he would listen to any ARU proposal but insisted a draft should not be the first or only solution.

"I'm not saying no, no, no to a draft but we would need to be convinced there are not better ways of attracting players to the Force," Dempsey said.

"I'm not sure players should have to give up their freedom because HQ hasn't looked after the new franchise."

Dempsey said the Brumbies had always been able to attract and, more importantly, retain players because it created a good culture and a coaching and management structure conducive to good rugby.

The Force's culture has been called into question almost from day one.

The failure of the ARU board to provide any start-up assistance - indeed it actually cut back Rugby WA's community rugby allocation from $400,000 to $200,000 - encouraged a cowboy mentality at the top that quickly worked its way into the playing ranks.

The club was fined by the ARU for approaching New South Wales Waratahs second-rower Al Kanaar after the deadline for offers and again when it was proved it had breached recruitment protocols by getting directly involved in third-party agreements.

One player was stood down from the team for failing a breath-test, a pre-season trip to Rottnest Island ended with the Force having to apologise to the public for the mistreatment of quokkas, Matt Henjak had his contract cancelled after breaking teammate Haig Sare's jaw last year and finally 30 players and officials signed a petition protesting Mitchell management practices.

"We're progressively developing our culture," said Force chairman Geoff Stooke.

"It's not something you go out and buy in a box."

Stooke said he had reservations whether a draft would work if the Force ended up with a roster of players who felt they had been press ganged into going to Perth.

He also claimed the Force had the highest player costs per head of any Australian franchise, saying the club's annual wages bill for its 33 contracted players was $5.6 million, $1.3m more than the ARU allocates to each of its four teams.

Yet despite more players receiving the maximum $110,000 contracts than any other franchise, it is finding it increasingly difficult to lure mature players.

The problem is there is no family network in Perth to help out and with the collapse of the Australian Rugby Championship, non-Wallabies now have to return east after the Super 14 to play in a decent club competition.

This makes it almost impossible to settle in one city.

Let them fail. A PI or Japan team can round out the S14. The last few years have proved that 4 teams has not been remotely good for Oz rugby - the worst World Cup since Dwyer's disaster in '95. Consistent losses on the EOYT. A Bledisloe Cup that I can't even remember what it looks like.

The Farce have consistently fucked up off the field, have coach issues, and you want to reward this behaviour? And lets face it, its not like the East Coast will be drafting much from the barren production line of WA.

 

[brokendown gunfighter]

such foul words from such sweet lips

keep taking the tablets openside ;D

 

[Blue]

Now a rugby team gets a bailout package. :nta:

 

[Moses]

thought we only bailed out auto manufacturers and banks.. now it's rugby teams too

 

[Ash]

This story makes a few interesting points:

http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,8659,25092725-5002381,00.html

I have no issue with the Force being saved. I thought WA was the wrong decision to begin with and it should have gone to Melbourne. But that's too late now - I don't think the ARU can afford to lose a team that they've invested so much in. It was always going to take a few years for the Australian teams to develop the depth required for 4 teams, and we are getting there - slowly. Once we have enough depth for four competitive teams it will be worth it.

Where's the depth to come from? Less youth players lost to league, or some coming back, like Will Chambers and Tyrone Smith. Some talented club men stay in Aus for a few extra years like Jimmy H or Valentine, or some return (sometimes temporarily) to Aus, like Scott Staniforth, Dave Pusey, Ed O'Donoghue and Pat O'Connor. The marquee system also allows a team to fill temporary holes - like Braid at the Reds. I think that we need another 4 or so years for the current young crop of players to show their wares, and we should at least have 3 competitive teams and 1 mid-end table. But I've 'Lee Grant'ed.

What I DO have issue with is the ARU protecting the Force players. The Force players raided the weakest of the S14 team at the time - the Reds. The Reds also had known coaching and boardroom issues, resulting in internal unhappiness of both players and staff. They also happened to have at the time one of the most talented Academy sides in a few years. The Force aggressively targetted Queensland the most, taking Academy, first team and dirt track players, plus Gits and Fava (Brumbies) and Cannon (Tahs), then filled up most of the rest with NSW club players. Now, where was ARU intervention and talk of a draft to save Queensland at the time?

A few years later, Queensland is slowly coming out of the mire it dug itself into, and the Force now has off the field issues, board room issues and issues with players not getting paid. Giteau takes off, and many players reportedly signed and hung due to the test 5/8 being at the club. An exodus looms, and the ARU steps in and there's talk of a draft.

Why now? Why not when the Force first started? Or why didn't they make all players off contract for their clubs and try to create an equitable way of spreading the talent? Many of those players reportedly wanted out of the Reds, others, like Mitchell, left for the money. Now, say, many of those players want out of the Force, why should the ARU stop them? If the ARU were to stop, say, Queensland poaching Brown back and then Pocock back, it would be pretty miserable.

As we can see, the Force raiding the weakest Australian team in the S14 worked only to create two pitifully weak teams, and put back Queensland's recovery by an extra few years. Seeing as I'm a Reds supporter, to be honest I couldn't care less if the three teams raided the Force and left them cellar dwellers for the next 4 to 5 years.

 

[brokendown gunfighter]

Now a rugby team gets a bailout package. :nta:

what bailout package?
please supply me with the details

 

[Blue]

Now a rugby team gets a bailout package. :nta:

what bailout package?
please supply me with the details

Ok I forgot the sarcasm smiley

A guaranteed safety to prevent them going down like sack of spuds. That better?

 

[hatchie]

Some of these comments posted here just sicken me. Listen to yourselves. Pull your head out of your own East coast-centric ass and think about Australian rugby for a moment.

The plain fact of the matter is that if we would be playing on a rectangular pitch by now our membership levels would trounce any other franchise (much alike 2006 & '07). Don't forget only three weeks ago we had 18000 at Members Equity, when the all Aussie trials were barely getting 4000. The journos and other doomsayers would have been much quieter right now if our membership base was like it was in the first two years.

Gits will leave and we'll be a better team for it. He might have a great skills set, but he is not as bigger loss as many people are claiming (whether others follow him, that is a another matter). It would nice to see a playmaker at the Force that runs a backline for a change rather than just relying on his own skillset to run around a prop marking him (and/or crab sideways and crowd the other backs). He never should have played at 10.

WA will start producing Wallabies in time. Our senior playing ranks have exploded since the Force came about and Sandgropers have a proud history of producing some of the countries finest in every sporting code. Rugby will be no different but it won't happy overnight. As all these AFL kids starting trying out rugby because they watched the Force in their youth we'll start reaping the rewards. Be patient.

But above all, quit your bitching. Some of you are starting to sound like AFL fans.

 

[RugbyReg]

will you take it ok if the likes of Mitchell (Drew), JOC (James O'Connor) and Brown and Cummins leave?

You're already without Castle who's moving on.

 

[rugbywhisperer]

I am very open to read all of the discussion here and I am most interested in a draft system, however, we need to discuss it as will the ARU/RUPA.
For years I have been concerned at the inordinate numbers of 'new talent' migrating to the biggest dollar and I have for years followed the US NFL where the draft has become an extremely equitable means of distributing new talent.
Consideration MUST be given to the 'home' team where they have developed a player over the years and yes, Queensland I believe has more and better talent in both the NTS and academies and for years have been raped by the other franchises. There must be some equity base.
As for the Force, while I would prefer a Melbourne or even a South East Qld base for the team, however it is there and it must be there to stay. While the initial years depleted the quality of Aust rugby the diversification of the teams will over time build up and we will eventually have more top line players than before the franchise was started. We must give it time and the Force and the ARU must work hand in hand with RUPA to bring about not only a consensus based result but one that will work for all concerned.

As for the cause of the current malady, I don't believe it is all Mitchell's fault as it is not all Giteau's fault however Gits has been found wanting in the ethics arens whhen his statement on going to Perth were along the lines of " it's not about the money - its how exciting to help build a new team and the challenges involved " - hogwash. As soon as he didn't like the coach (boo hoo) and he didn't get his golden carrot he's off like a glass of milk in the midday sun.

How wonderful would we all feel of him if he stayed and actually accomplished something there.

 

[disco]

I want the Force to stay but I hope the WA government come good on the promise of a rectangular stadium by 2010.

Losing Giteau won't be the end of the world maybe they could chase SNK who is probably 2nd only to Quade Cooper at passing accurately.

Drew Mitchell will leave but I can't see any big exodus over there but they will have to get rid of John Mitchell.

I'm all for a player draft by the way, currently we have 32 players per squad so if you contract 25 of them & release 7 to a national draft or maybe look at trades between coaches in the off season I think it would only strenghten aussie rugby.

 

[Ash]

Some of these comments posted here just sicken me. Listen to yourselves. Pull your head out of your own East coast-centric ass and think about Australian rugby for a moment.

Shame the Force didn't think about Australian rugby whilst raping the Reds' Academy, or offering huge sums of money to some undeserving players. It's a two-way street there. I see nothing wrong with what I wrote.

The plain fact of the matter is that if we would be playing on a rectangular pitch by now our membership levels would trounce any other franchise (much alike 2006 & '07). Don't forget only three weeks ago we had 18000 at Members Equity, when the all Aussie trials were barely getting 4000. The journos and other doomsayers would have been much quieter right now if our membership base was like it was in the first two years.

That's unfortunate that the government renegged on a half promise (my understanding). My belief is that the Force would probably be better stacking out Members Equity with 18k every week than playing at Subiaco or where ever with, say, 22k, which is a turd for rectangular games. If they used Members Equity, at the least they could push for an upgrade.

That being said, your membership base does not stop quokka throwing antics or team mates fighting. It does not stop ridiculous situations with obviously suspicious third parties giving huge sums of money to players to play over there, then folding with large amount of money unpaid. It does not stop Giteau leaving.

Gits will leave and we'll be a better team for it. He might have a great skills set, but he is not as bigger loss as many people are claiming (whether others follow him, that is a another matter).

Don't see how that is the case. He carried the backline as it has underperformed in the first few games of the year. If he can be replaced by a team man how can harness the likes of Cross, JO'C, Mitchell, Shepherd etc then the Force might come close. But I don't see how you'll be a better team for losing a player that makes other players want to be at the club.

It would nice to see a playmaker at the Force that runs a backline for a change rather than just relying on his own skillset to run around a prop marking him (and/or crab sideways and crowd the other backs). He never should have played at 10.

Whilst Gits did perhaps look hit best with Jimmy H inside of him, his play hasn't been nearly as bad as you describe at 5/8. He was the best 5/8 by a long way of any of the Australian teams last year, and one of the best 2 or 3 in the comp. I don't see how that is easily replaceable.

WA will start producing Wallabies in time. Our senior playing ranks have exploded since the Force came about and Sandgropers have a proud history of producing some of the countries finest in every sporting code. Rugby will be no different but it won't happy overnight. As all these AFL kids starting trying out rugby because they watched the Force in their youth we'll start reaping the rewards. Be patient.

It won't happen for a many years though. You need the support of a strong age competition (whether in schools or otherwise) to develop and identify the talent, then you need the infastructure to guide them into professional ranks afterwards - not to mention the desire in athetlic young kids to play the code over AFL.

WA will take years to build the strength of their competition up from basically scratch.

But above all, quit your bitching. Some of you are starting to sound like AFL fans.

You mean passionate about the sport?

 

[mark_s]

I agree with the thread title, this article and some of the posts in here are a disgrace. :lmao:

The introducton of an additional team was always going to be difficult regardless of where it was based, someone was going to have to stump up alot of the players and Qld got hit hardest of all no doubts about it. On the flip side, QLD were a mess around that time and some of the blame needs to be attributed to themselves. Some of these players would have left regardless ala Moore. My view, is that it just gives us all a good reason to hate them, just like the tahs and reds had good reasons to hate the brumbies when they came in.

Without the force, there wouldn't be any debate as to who is better our of Pocock and Smith, as he would only be in his 1st year of S14 rugby now that Crofty has retired.

I think we need to get behind the force as they are absolutely necessary to grow rugby long term in Aus. Its a real pity the ARC fell over. I very much doubt SANZAR would agree to another Aus team if the Force fell over for some reason.

 

[formeropenside]

I had no problems with the Brumbies. They poached clear second-stringers (apart from Pat Howard, but I seem to recall he was a little out of favour at the time) and their first captain was a Queenslander, Brett Robinson, caught behind David Wilson.

 

[disco]

The introducton of an additional team was always going to be difficult regardless of where it was based, someone was going to have to stump up alot of the players and Qld got hit hardest of all no doubts about it. On the flip side, QLD were a mess around that time and some of the blame needs to be attributed to themselves.

Spot on.

 

[Ash]

The introducton of an additional team was always going to be difficult regardless of where it was based, someone was going to have to stump up alot of the players and Qld got hit hardest of all no doubts about it. On the flip side, QLD were a mess around that time and some of the blame needs to be attributed to themselves.

Spot on.

That's exactly true, and the crux of my point was that the ARU didn't protect Queensland when it had its internal mess, players mass migrating to the Force, etc etc, so why should the ARU give favoritism to the Force now with its internal mess and so on?

What astounds me is that Force supporters can't understand the bitterness from Queensland supporters. We all understood why it happened and how it happened. Quite honestly, many of those players would not have left if there was not a fourth team - players like Pocock, Mitchell, etc, whereas players like Moore would've left anyway.

I support the Force and like to see them win like any Aus team. That being said, I also hope they get flogged by Queensland every year and finish below Queensland on the ladder. I will also shed no tears if their best players are raped by other Aus teams and they finish at the cellar for a few years.

 

[hi-jinks]

Turn it up Ash. NSW have provided the talent for QLD side for years. You guys loose a couple of players and the tears are out???

Harden up, deadset.
Ironically the word is Moore fell out with Mark Bell. The NSW plan of destabilising the rednecks from up north has worked a treat. Top marks Belly.

 

[disco]

NSW have provided the talent for QLD side for years.

Which years exactly? Sure Qld has had some talent from NSW over the years but there has been a few head south also.

 

[en_force_er]

this draft is unnecessary. there are plenty of players worthy of a look-at that haven't played super 14 yet.
look to wa, sa and vic. you will find plenty of players who COULD be good if given the same game time as there act, nsw and qld counterparts. look to america and canada and you will find plenty of players who could give super 14 a crack.
sure the force will get rolled for at minimum two seasons if this happens but after that there would be a brand new crop of terrific players ready for test selection.

the force have a real opportunity to explore some unique selection avenues, if they use it properly it could create something special.

 

[Ash]

Turn it up Ash. NSW have provided the talent for QLD side for years. You guys loose a couple of players and the tears are out???

Harden up, deadset.
Ironically the word is Moore fell out with Mark Bell. The NSW plan of destabilising the rednecks from up north has worked a treat. Top marks Belly.

Who knows, maybe if a certain hooker stuck behind Kearns had headed north then he might've made it.

I'd like to thank NSW for producing all of the Qld rugby greats, from Mark Loane to Michael Lynagh, to John Eales and Tim Horan. Of course, thankfully Queensland also had some real born and bred Queensland heroes like Chris Latham (and Alan Border, if you want to include cricket), but they were so few and far between. I'd include Nathan Spooner, but I'm not sure he was much of anything.