the way forward for refereeing?

[sjg]

hi everyone, regularly view the forum and love it but dont usually post. however reading through the boks v blacks thread a point came up that i thought would be interesting to discuss...
the issue regarding the so called controversial video ref decision on the forward pass for the blacks denied try: in the interest of the game of rugby as a whole, would it be better for the game to have an absolute ruling on the laws, ie literally enforce the law to the utmost having video refs calling it, making the game as fair as possible. or keep the reffing of the game as it is, or a slight alteration.
i personally believe that the referee is an important part of the game and should not be lost. the ability of a team to play to the ref and the captains ability to work the ref should be able to give an advantage. the humanity of the refs is an important part of the game and loosing this to an absolute system would be a shame.

and who would want to take the fun out of bitching about the refs?

 

[Tireless Backrower]

i havent seen the game yet but deciding on forward passes is (a) difficult on video because sometimes you will not have the correct angle (b) impermissible because you can only go to the TMO for assistance in the act of scoring the try...or something like that.

On the first point the correct angle does not mean an angle in line with where the pass was thrown. You do not need to be in line with a pass to rule on it being forward. This is because the requirement is that the passers hand not propel the bal toward the opponents goal line. It is perfectly permissible for the ball to be passed at a point 20m from the opposing goal line and to be caught 19m from it. The difference is explained by the fact that the player carrying the ball is moving toward the opponents goal line, in the ordinary case, or could be due to the wind blowing it forward or even the ball swinging in the air. Therefore the usual exclamation "it drifted forward" does not constitute it as a forward pass.

 

[sjg]

i agree with the points you have made, however im not necessarily specifically referring to this mornings game, but more of a general discussion on the direction of refereeing in the future. as it stands the technological infrastructure at most venues wouldnt allow the reviewing necessary for a completely automated refereeing system, but (i dont watch much football/soccer at all so im not entirely sure) i believe that football/soccer has a system that can rule offsides? wouldnt this technology suit the forward pass?

 

[Tireless Backrower]

I dont know - offside in wogball is pretty straightforward (like most things in that game!)

I do know that league used to rule on forward passes from video and abandoned it because it was too dubious.

I also know that we dont want to finish up with the league situation where they stop for ages to work out all the permutations and combinations....and still get it wrong: Union has enough stoppages already...particularly for Vickerman to replace his contact lenses.

I think that an international level we need assistant refs who have the balls to call what they see: these days there seems to be a view that you can give AR appointments to blokes you would not consider giving a test to. Those appointments will never call in an infringement.

This is particularly noticeable and damage to the Wallabies on our scrum feed in our half when the opposition loose head omits/neglects/refuses to get his bind on the tight head at engagement, steps out and around, scrum goes down we get penalised.

 

[sjg]

true, the flow of the game is its greatest aspect. granted this thread was just personal interest and speculation, anything likely to happen will either not at all or take years. haha yeah, i dont understand how it is so difficult to have decent touchies, they are either incompetent or have the 'hey mum im on tv' approach, poking in their noggin when its not needed. quality refs need to be issued across the board at international level, but the reality is the depth isnt there

 

[Tireless Backrower]

true, the flow of the game is its greatest aspect. granted this thread was just personal interest and speculation, anything likely to happen will either not at all or take years. haha yeah, i dont understand how it is so difficult to have decent touchies, they are either incompetent or have the 'hey mum im on tv' approach, poking in their noggin when its not needed. quality refs need to be issued across the board at international level, but the reality is the depth isnt there

I call the defeatist nonsense - we can change the world

 

[sjg]

haha why not, along with fixing rugbys issues lets hit up world famine and war??

seems to be that in all levels of australian rugby the ground work is lacking.

 

[barbarian]

I actually don't think you should have a one-size-fits-all approach to this. As a rule I don't think that video refs should rule on forward passes, but with the amount and quality of camera angles (including aerial shots) last night it would have been criminal if the TMO had not ruled 'no try'. You could clearly say it was forward.

But if there wasn't those angles to work with, and you were operating from hand held and operated cameras then it would be much more difficult to call. I think you just have to rely on the TMO and referee's discretion sadly. That doesn't always work out but that's rugby.

 

[Tireless Backrower]

am I right in thinking that the TMO ruled on a forward pass?

 

[Reido]

It would have been more of a controversy if the TMO hadn't ruled it forward. It was that blatant and right on the try line. I'm not sure how the touchie missed it. These guys are missing a hell of a lot more than the refs these days. I was also surprised there wasn't a penalty or a card or any word of a citing on that tackle in the first half where the ab player ( I can't remember who the players involved were) took his opponent over the horizontal position and then threw him down. He didn't go to ground with the player. That's a penalty and more times than not a yellow card. That was right in front of the ref too.

 

[qwerty51]

am I right in thinking that the TMO ruled on a forward pass?

No.

The TMO said the ball was grounded, that was his decision. However he also decided to add in extra information that the pass was forward. The referee could've still awarded the try and he made the final decision.

 

[Bruwheresmycar]

The right call was made. In future if they (TOM) do start giving advice on forward passes to the ref. They should only do so on absolutely blatant forward passes, seeing as passes that travel slightly forward are part of the game.

 

[Tireless Backrower]

The right call was made. In future if they (TOM) do start giving advice on forward passes to the ref. They should only do so on absolutely blatant forward passes, seeing as passes that travel slightly forward are part of the game.

One man's blatant is another man's marginal. The TMO's are always from the home nation. This cant work. let me guess ABs forward pass?

 

[DPK]

The right call was made. In future if they (TOM) do start giving advice on forward passes to the ref. They should only do so on absolutely blatant forward passes, seeing as passes that travel slightly forward are part of the game.

And aren't illegal. If the guy hands pass the ball towards the opposition tryline, it's forward; this would be easy to see from a TMO replay.

 

[Tireless Backrower]

And aren't illegal. If the guy hands pass the ball towards the opposition tryline, it's forward; this would be easy to see from a TMO replay.

It doesn't matter if they travel massively forward...the degree of forwardness is not the issue

 

[Baldric]

These guys are missing a hell of a lot more than the refs these days

You are right there. It seems last year they were all over the game having their 15 secs of fame. Now they might as well give them a a box of ice-creams to sell while they do their duties.

 

[Tireless Backrower]

OK
I have just seen the forward pass decision.
As I mused it was a Seth Efriken official who called it
Yes the pass was blatantly forward but the ref and the TMO should be sacked for squibbing it. The try should have been awarded because the TMO had no jurisdiction to provide additional information

 

[blindfreddy]

Hi sjg. An interesting topic and one that I was thinking about during the week. I can see a situation in the future where the on-field referee is being constantly updated by the video referee(s). Not a situation where the ref stops a game to ask if something has happened but where calls are being made constantly. So if something is missed by the on field guy, he is told by the video guy. Can't see it happening in the very near future ( it won't happen overnight but it will happen!!) but as technology improves I think it will happen.

As far as forward passes go, a camera that follows the line of the ball would probably be a help, similar to what is used for sprint races at the athletics . The pass in last nights game was forward and if the law as it stands doesn't allow the TMO to comment, then the law needs changing. As an ex-ref, where the ball ended up wasn't normally the issue with a forward pass, it normally just doesn't look right ie the hands moving forward not back as the ball is passed.

 

[Toddy]

It was a shocking call. The pass was definitely forward but the ref was clearly wrong in not awarding the try.

If the ref admits to knowing the rule then he should be sacked. Not stood down, not fined but sacked.

Still the best team won but that ref has to go.

 

[Nusadan]

As I stated in the relevant earlier thread, it was noticed that AR started to communicate to the referee even before the ball was grounded in goal about the forward pass...so I don't think the AR missed it at all.