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The Wallaby Brand: Death or Glory?

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Langthorne

Phil Hardcastle (33)
Exactly. This is not a new problem caused by Deans. Look at what the guy inherited. Asking him to carry the responsibility of fixing all aspects of Oz rugby is unfair and unreasonable.

There are other threads for discussing the specifics of Deans' tenure as coach but the salient point for this thread is that he inherited a team that was winning more often than it has under Deans. The team he inherited won its first 4(?) matches without extensive changes to the team or time with Deans. The sport will benefit from a Wallabies team that is winning.

Deans can't be blamed for the organisation or promotion of rugby in Australia, but I don't think he is being blamed for that.

As for the Wallaby brand since 2001 - the Wallabies under E. Jones and Connolly performed worse than under MacQueen. I would say the 'brand' declined as a result. The Wallabies are now performing worse still, so I guess the 'brand' is declining yet further.

On a positive note, this can all be turned around with a winning team and a well run ARU - bring on the Tri Nations!
 

RugbyReg

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
the McMeniman par is the most disappointing part. Stars with 3 tries, and then does is hammy again!
 

Reddy!

Bob Davidson (42)

Read that in the paper this morning; mate, the loss of Mcmeniman and Heenan to not only overseas, but a devastating injury run is heartbreaking as a Reds and Wallabies fan. I say heartbreaking because I haven't seen a player like them since, with the height, size, aggression and skill. Had their bodies been fit for professional rugby I have no doubt that Heenan or Mcmeniman would have been the Wallabies blindside of the decade and Elsom would be the one overseas, and not Wallaby captain.
 
T

tranquility

Guest
I agree, when they were all fit - Elsom was the weakest of the three.
 

Ruggo

Mark Ella (57)
Can't help but feel for MMM. Horror run of injuries and the loss of his old man. Me thinks we may never see him in Australian colours again. Will just look to set up his retirement in what will end up being a short career. I hope I am wrong though. As for Rocky, I don't rate him as the best blindside in the country anyway. I rate both Higgers and Mowen better than him.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
I think it will take a long time for Rugby to get on an even footing with other sports. Look at last years S14 comp as an example. If every Saturday night you could sit down and see a game played along the lines of the Reds v bulls game then the ratings and popularity will increase with time. Even if this exciting style of play was on every week it will only attract viewers if it is a regular thing. Imagine the dissapointment of looking forward to a great running match and seeing the Tahs being booed by their own crowd!

For Australia to move forward we need to play an attractive style of game. This needs to be encouraged and rewarded by the ARU in some way.

Yes LB. There is no doubt that a combination of dynamic, fast moving, ball-in-hand play with a reasonable w-l ratio will (over time) pull better economic outcomes for a State team than say a higher w-l and stodgy, kick-fest, stop-and-start-and-stop version of play. The decline of overall crowd numbers/gate $s in Oz S14 is major concern for the code - the QRU had to be financially rescued in 2009, the NSW RU is now reporting consistent $ losses and attendance declines. These issues are not much discussed here at GAGR, but I can assure you they will have a huge impact on all Oz rugby fans/the Oz code in the medium-term if they don't get fixed.

The QRU is turning round. Let's hope NSWRU has the clean out it obviously needs, and appoints a really top notch new CEO (as it is seeking now). Brumbies/ACT in all sorts of strife, needs a total clean out. Force/WA just made some v bad calls re senior coaches, huge mistake IMO. I am excited by the Rebels though, the omens look quite good there. I would just love to see the private-equity backed model work in MEL, Macqueen be a huge success, and then the pressure really on ACT and NSW to lift every aspect of their operations, and fast.
 

cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
I agree, when they were all fit - Elsom was the weakest of the three.

When did this time actually occur? I was a MMM fan, but he is made of bad protoplasm unfortunately. I doubt the training regimens in Japan will be tailored specifically to his problems. I remembered Heenan as needing something of a heart transplant...lots of promise, but lacking in ticker.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
Interesting you quote that RedsHappy

Have a listen to Eddie's interview on Ruggamatrix and what he says about coaching vs player depth in Australian rugby

http://ruggamatrix.heavensgame.com/main/archives/1170

Thanks Gagger, much appreciated. (I had already listened to half of it, and you have helped me go through the lot!).

The contents of that mp3 throws up (some of) the big issues.

Let me respond to a few themes:

1. EJ (Eddie Jones) annoys me somewhat as a commentator 'getting ever more successful at predicting the past'. I mean, for example only, that he (and Ella this week) start talking now about Giteau's issues is both highly amusing and highly intellectually lazy. It's been obvious for at least a year+ that Giteau needed a major break from either Deans or the game (my preference for him) or both, and continuing to play him every game as 'the icon we just must have' was and is irresponsible to G and to the team and to the fans. And EJ (Eddie Jones)'s comments re development and depth issues in the Oz game - this was probably his largest failure in his extended tenure as elite coach.

2. EJ (Eddie Jones)'s notion that 'a top coach has no responsibility for player depth, he just takes on who's handed to to him' is grossly irresponsible and would apply in virtually no other major sport where a coach has, say, a 3 yr plus contract. We can be quite sure that if, say, the Head Coach of Swimming Australia or Sir Alex Ferguson at MU said such things (they never would) they would in the former case be sacked and in the latter be considered as having a very off day. Elite rugby coaches (many very well paid) have and should have a large co-responsibility for commencing active engagement with their national codes to get the underlying player feedstock development programs optimised for the game's medium-term's needs. This is manifestly in their interests, let alone the code's, say 2+ years into their contracts. It's also an ethical responsibility to the game IMO, as it's the fans TV viewing and gate $s that ultimately, in the end, pay these blokes' salaries.

Blind Freddy knows that player depth in _any_ top sport is critical to its sustained success (we in introverted Oz rugby tend to think this is major new insight/problem). If a top coach cannot devote time and useful experience to the design of the right form of elite player development and feedstock programs (typically with 2-4 year horizons), and then help those programs work every single year, then he/she is not adequately qualified or does not have the right job spec. Let's also recall: a Wallaby coach is only active for the period June-December every year, he has at least 4-5 months in observer mode for active advisory and feedstock work within the code.

The clue here of course is that EJ (Eddie Jones) clearly did NOT perform this role to any useful degree or see it as one of his core responsibilities - that is more a reflection upon his inadequacies and ARU negligence/laziness than of the correct approach to this issue in the strategic interests of our game.

(A related observation: Deans' recent public statement 'you can only work with what you're given' was one of the most dispiriting and irresponsible declamations I have ever heard any top coach make. Whatever his private views, can you imagine what it must feel like as a Wallaby in the squad to hear that from your coach after another poor game? [This highlights my gravest fear re Deans: that he is not developing what I will loosely call the 'Wallabies team mind and culture' in the right way.] These players do not all enjoy Giteau's or Elsom's 'protected icon' status in the team. It was just like Jones' recent get-out in support of the International Union of Half-Failed Coaches: 'we can't help all the poor cattle we get served up from the shallow Oz player base'. The integrity of these statements is of a low, and game-demeaning standard...and to my oft-made point, it shows how little we have come to expect of these men in their national positions.)

3. I have posted some weeks back that I absolutely agree with EJ (Eddie Jones)'s latest warmed-over view that there are serious under investments and deficiencies in the Australian elite player feedstock and development system. I certainly do not ascribe all of the Wallabies current problems to Deans (just a chunk of them ;-) ).

My main focus area in this zone of comment has been on forwards as that is where I believe our biggest developmental problems lie (in terms of all of raw numbers, raw talent, and in-depth skill development). I have actually advanced in these fora the specific idea of a dedicated, fully staffed Australian Forwards Academy, and set forth what IMO it should be doing and how it should be staffed. (On GAGR, these inputs received about as much interest as the possibility of Kevin Rudd now joining Masterchef. Though one young forward wrote a good note highlighting why he thought the idea had real merit.) One of my motives for starting this thread was to focus upon the _underlying_ reasons why we have problems with the modern Wallabies and S14 teams, and what needs to be done about that at a _systemic_ not merely game-tactical-selection level.

When a Wallaby 22 is presented for a game, it's a precise reflection of its history and the underlying system (and the system's values) that created and formed it. Except for the rare playing genius, that 22 will never be better than that system is good at creating it. Improving that system (and its core values) and making it world-class is the key to everything, long-term.

4. Finally, let me turn to a favourite topic of the 'mood of Australian rugby commentary in 2010'. I believe that a very great deal of Australian rugby thinking has turned away from appropriately high, and rightly demanding, expectations of the ARU and its elite (and its elite coaches) to a wondrous journey towards eloquent blame-gaming in such matters as 'thin player base', 'small player population', 'AFL and diveball killing us', 'sadly can't be like NZ', and such like. We are today building an excuses-factory for under-performance of a productivity and 24/7 continuity that will soon rival the best of BMW's.

I don't buy a lot of this, and, worse, I fear the buying of will take this code into further dangers and deterioration.

How, I ask, is it possible for our great county to get into the top 5 olympic nations year-in, year-out? 22m people, yeah? How is it possible that, with a player base a fraction of India's and smaller than England's we remain at or very near the top of the global cricketing nations? How is possible that with a population under 10% of the USA's, we remain highly competitive with them in global swimming? How do our national hockey and netball and womens' basketball teams stay at or near the top of their sports globally with player bases here a fraction of many of their competitor nations/teams? My simple, no-brainer point is this: if 'small player base relative to others' etc was the utterly determining factor is an Australian sport's ability to thrive and dominate, this country's elite sports success would barely exist, or would have been wiped out 20 + years ago.

I'll have a guess why Australia' relatively small player bases have done so damn well: two reasons. One, we have the right toughness, spirit, aggression (good sort), resilience and general mental fortitude and and cultural motivation to make a huge difference to any teams' capacity for victory. We have the right 'team mind' that comes from our culture, mostly. Two, we have developed a virtuous circle whereby factor one, linked to a generally excellent educational system, has led in many cases to world class sports science and training infrastructure, of which the AIS is just one shining example.

How does this relate to Australian elite rugby today? My view: with the exception of a few capable people (JO'N I do respect), Australian elite rugby has slowly but palpably detached itself from the above two factors. Today, 2010, overall it is no longer led by a coaching or (mostly) player elite that is absolutely obsessed by excellence and winning and 'hard mind' and, most critically, we are not taking the Alan Borders or Steve Waugh's as our mental model for absolute resolve and fortitude, we are pampering ourselves with excuses and psycho-babble and soft thinking coupled with the dangerous elixir of lowered expectations. Next, we have not and are not sustaining the world-class training, coaching and player development systems and infrastructure essential for building a base of player feedstock that can fuel world-beating teams (which is today essential in any top sport btw).

When we get back to the right form of Australian mindset and team culture, and materially improve our underlying developmental infrastructure, we will rediscover glory in Australian rugby. And yes, of course it can be done.
 

liquor box

Peter Sullivan (51)
Yes LB. There is no doubt that a combination of dynamic, fast moving, ball-in-hand play with a reasonable w-l ratio will (over time) pull better economic outcomes for a State team than say a higher w-l and stodgy, kick-fest, stop-and-start-and-stop version of play. The decline of overall crowd numbers/gate $s in Oz S14 is major concern for the code - the QRU had to be financially rescued in 2009, the NSW RU is now reporting consistent $ losses and attendance declines. These issues are not much discussed here at GAGR, but I can assure you they will have a huge impact on all Oz rugby fans/the Oz code in the medium-term if they don't get fixed.

The QRU is turning round. Let's hope NSWRU has the clean out it obviously needs, and appoints a really top notch new CEO (as it is seeking now). Brumbies/ACT in all sorts of strife, needs a total clean out. Force/WA just made some v bad calls re senior coaches, huge mistake IMO. I am excited by the Rebels though, the omens look quite good there. I would just love to see the private-equity backed model work in MEL, Macqueen be a huge success, and then the pressure really on ACT and NSW to lift every aspect of their operations, and fast.

Sadly I dont think that the crowd numbers are what will move the code forward, at best there are only around 200k people that could watch a S15 game live (sellouts at 5 grounds in Aus). This would be a great dream but not very likely.
The game will move forward on TV royalties. I think if the game can be consistently attractive then we can look at free to air games and increase the following of the game.
Until this years so called Baa Baas team I would have laid money on a Baa Baas game on a Friday night taking some league viewers off ch9 as it is usually an attractive game. The Gosford Baa Baas game showed that Australian Rugby is about trying to win first and entertain second. We need a change in attiutde that recognises that it is possible to do both.

I think a bonus based on ratings would be a good starting point.
 

Gagger

Nick Farr-Jones (63)
Staff member
RH - I think a full transcript of Eddie's interview just may have been shorter than your post!

In short - Eddie quoted Arsene Venger who said that National Coach in any sport is a tough job as he can only select from the depth that's available. In a previous issue of Ruggamatrix the messiah Ewen McKenzie said exactly the same thing. (In public RH!)

EJ (Eddie Jones) said he thought Robbie is a great coach doing a good job, but when your depth fails like ours has just now in the forwards, this is what you get.

Somehow above you've now turned this into another fault of Deans?

If a top coach cannot devote time and useful experience to the design of the right form of elite player development and feedstock programs (typically with 2-4 year horizons), and then help those programs work every single year, then he/she is not adequately qualified or does not have the right job spec. Let's also recall: a Wallaby coach is only active for the period June-December every year, he has at least 4-5 months in observer mode for active advisory and feedstock work within the code.

I don't think you'd find many national set ups, or even top club franchises, who didn't have directors in charge of what you describe, that's because the coach can't be responsible for everything in their sport - and I don't think that makes them bludgers.

I could/can go with some of the arguments around Deans not always making best tactical / game decisions with the Wallabies (e.g. Bringing Genia back vs Poms) but laying feedstock programmes at his doorstep as well is going beyond the pale!
 
D

daz

Guest
+1 Gagger.

The development and management of the Wallaby stock falls under the direct control of the regional coach for 6 months of the year. RD has mad eit very clear that while he does work in a very general sense with the OzS14 coaches, on the whole he has little to no say in the set-up.

When RD gets them, it is literally only weeks away from game-on for 6 months. What on Earth is RD supposed to do?
 

waratahjesus

Greg Davis (50)
. What on Earth is RD supposed to do?

develop or pick a team capable of winning, it is if he is capable of this that the arguments should be made.
they didnt want a home grown coach who understood our system they wanted someone from a better system, he has full backing and hopefully brought his own sword cos i wouldnt want to waste one of ours.
 

Richo

John Thornett (49)
While I don't think big crowds are the going to provide the necessary financial backing rugby needs, they do demonstrate passion for the game. It's hard to be into a televised match when on every second shot you can see the three-quarters-empty stadium in the background.

I think a very small, but not insignificant, change that can be made (at least in NSW) is to actually provide a better experience at the games. Obviously that starts with an entertaining game but it doesn't end there. Half-time activities, music choices, the announcer -- all these things could be much, much better. They're small problems, but who seriously goes to a rugby game and gets excited when the stadium blasts Britney Spears as NSW was wont to do a few years back? Do be serious. Half-time activities might not interest fans like me, but kids can get into them when done right. Players can do their part, too, outside the game itself. Half-heartedly lobbing foam Tahs balls into the crowd after the game doesn't cut it. Being a professional sportsman means more than just running on the paddock - you need to be an ambassador to the game at all times.

I was pleased to see that the Waratahs let the fans onto the pitch after a few home games this year. The youngsters loved it and it was a sight to see. Baby steps, NSWRU, baby steps.

I want to emphasise that I don't think anything I've just written is The Answer, but I do think that stepping up the overall quality and enjoyment of attending games matters. Best of all, it doesn't cost the earth to do it.
 

Nusadan

Chilla Wilson (44)
Do what the Sydney Swans AFL team do...offer family pass to a home game next door to the SFS at $40 bucks for the whole family!
 
B

BackStalls

Guest
This is my first post (apart from a very silly spoof dressing room conversation a couple of weeks back) but I've found myself getting a little hot under the collar around all the discusssion of Deans coaching abilities and thought I'd throw my 2 cents in.

My brother works as an elite coach overseas (not rugby) and I'm aware of some of the issues that are entailed in these kinds of roles. It's incredibly easy to look on from outside and assume incompetence when there are a multitude of issues usually underlying that influence the kinds of results that we as fans can see.

First, there is usually an assumption from outsiders that what the coach wants he gets. This is usually not true and usually very far from the truth. National coaching positions (particularly in high profile sports) are subject to enormous political pressures from the various unions / bodies that have a stake. Annoying but a reality. I know my bro is constantly fighting to get his way and usually has to compromise.

There is also an assumption that a good coach will automatically be able to extract the performances he wants, has asked for, has planned for and has trained his team for. This also doesn't often happen. Most players play on instinct (they have to at this level) and providing enough training to undo instincts honed over years takes time and is sometimes just not possible. So assuming poor game plans or preparation is the result of losses is sometimes just that - an assumption.

I could go on and on but one other thing I wanted to point out. Someone mentioned how demotivating Deans comments of 'We can only play with what we've got' are. I'd like to point out in Deans defence that I think he goes a long way to protecting his players from criticism. One example is the fact that you never see him in the dressing room at half time giving the team an acid spray. While some people think this is what the players need to kick them into gear, imo this is rarely effective. It's certainly not sophisticated and my feeling is that these displays of disapproval from coaches are often arse covering. ie. they know the media are filming. this way the world gets to see how unhappy they are, the team are not doing what the coach has told them etc. I'd much rather see a coach willing to shoulder the responsibility in the way Deans does in these circumstances.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
RH - 1. I think a full transcript of Eddie's interview just may have been shorter than your post!

2. In short - Eddie quoted Arsene Venger who said that National Coach in any sport is a tough job as he can only select from the depth that's available. In a previous issue of Ruggamatrix the messiah Ewen McKenzie said exactly the same thing. (In public RH!)

3. EJ (Eddie Jones) said he thought Robbie is a great coach doing a good job, but when your depth fails like ours has just now in the forwards, this is what you get.

4. Somehow above you've now turned this into another fault of Deans?

5. I don't think you'd find many national set ups, or even top club franchises, who didn't have directors in charge of what you describe, that's because the coach can't be responsible for everything in their sport - and I don't think that makes them bludgers.

6. I could/can go with some of the arguments around Deans not always making best tactical / game decisions with the Wallabies (e.g. Bringing Genia back vs Poms) but laying feedstock programmes at his doorstep as well is going beyond the pale!

Gagger:

Responding to the above by number (added in by me).

1. Scroll bar down your best weapon there. I try hard to write thoughtful posts that one or two readers might find of interest. Sometimes fermenting ideas (or getting down to one's core thoughts on a biggish topic) just cannot be done in a few lines. If you find it all rubbish, just don't read it please and move on, you will have wasted maybe 60 seconds. But please don't try (even politely) and make me feel bad because it's not as short or fluent as your style, or personal preference in posting. I thought this was a 'freestyle forum'. (Warning all: this post too is longer than average - please don't read further if you mainly like short posts or find this subject boring.)

2. Yes, he said that, but, and this is an important 'but', he also said it in a way that laid the ground for what I was to argue in my post is the big, inexcusable cop-out of long-tenure elite coaches who say these sorts of things: they are in effect washing their hands of the underlying player development system that generates the feedstock they use (or don't). I argue that that is neither of wise, responsible, nor completely honest. And I argue that such coaches _must_ be involved in the design of this system and ensuring its outcomes fit the 'gaps' in depth that should be identified by a top coach not long after he commences his contract. I argue that all this is a highly important part of an elite coach's job when he has long tenure (if he doesn't have that tenure, different story).

Please recall your own June 22 words (re pro and con Deans): "For too long Australia has clung by its fingernails to a starting 15 that is one injury or retirement away from oblivion." Are you suggesting now that the national coaches bore no material responsibility for that (at an underlying level), it's all just a matter of regrettable fate?

3. See 2. And in my post I argued that real player development in depth (for the good of the whole game long-term) was in fact one of Jones' greatest failings (especially in forwards) that, yes, he should be (still) accountable for. I am not surprised that he uses his current affection for regular media comment to sublty build an impressive excuses-platform that effectively abrogates long tenure coaches from underlying development responsibility. I can hear it all in the job interviews.

4/5. At no stage in my post did I say that an elite coach had sole or principal responsibility for underlying elite player development programs. My word was explicitly: 'co-responsibility.' (Part of my reasoning here is that this needs to be case so that coaches, in their mid-term, cannot start making excuses about the poor quality of the incoming feedstock. An above-average level of injuries should be the only really legitimate feedstock excuse from mid-term on.)

Now Deans. Most of post was not about Deans at all, but about Jones, elite coaching, and 'the state of the whole Oz rugby system'. You have chosen to centre upon him here. My principal point in this post re Deans was that I found it distasteful (from the players' motivation and morale perspective) to hear Deans now starting off with the 'you can only work with what you've got' mantra. I found this patronising towards the team, even if in some senses true. And I that sensed echos commencing of the very issue I have raised in 2 above. Next: I did not infer Deans was a 'bludger', what I did say was that national rugby coaches have plenty of time to spend on underlying, longer team development program design and execution. The question is, how well is that time used for such purposes? There can hardly be anything more important outside the active, on-field period.

6. As noted above, at no point did I lay feedstock programs as the primary or dominant responsibility of Deans. But I do definitely lay some responsibility for such at his door after he has been head coach for 2.3 seasons/years. My reasoning was in the post you refer to, and above.

You and I have very different perspectives on what are, or should be, the medium-term responsibilities of highly paid national coaches. And I suspect you see the 'hand that Deans has been dealt' as some kind of fatalistic process whereas I believe it can be _precisely_ traced to strategic failures by the ARU abetted by poor attention to deep player development strategies in the post-Macqueen period. None of where we are today is any kind of fateful co-incidence IMO.
 
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