Scrubber2050
Mark Ella (57)
Holloway seems the most likely IMO Browning has been OK at the Reds but certainly not up to test rugby - bit like Jake Shatz
The Wallabies Thread
- Thread starter KOB1987
- Start date
Holloway seems the most likely IMO Browning has been OK at the Reds but certainly not up to test rugby - bit like Jake Shatz
Scrubber2050
Mark Ella (57)
Think the chat was about Poey being there UNTIL a better option arose. Butler is good but Poey brings a lot more
ForceFan
Peter Fenwicke (45)
Not a No 8 until he develops some level of reliable Line Out skills and bulks up as he's the same weight as Browning.
Otherwise he's just like Pocock in weakening this important set piece.
Brumby Runner
Jason Little (69)
JB is quite an adequate No 8 at Super Rugby level, much better there than at 7, but not a test level player in either spot. I am sticking with Holloway as the best option for the Wallabies and should be included as soon as he is fit again. If there is a problem with his defense, not that I am conceding there is, then Pocock must play 7 in place of Michael Hooper. Hooper's defense is top level but is mainly out in the backs. Let's do something original and dramatic like picking some backs who know how to tackle in their areas of the game.
Scrubber2050
Mark Ella (57)
Good post BR
But a word of warning: The dogs will be out for you for making a mild criticism of that god-like lad, M Hooper
Jagman
Trevor Allan (34)
There was an article on the Roar last week where the writer analized the Wallabies (and the brumbies) attack (it was about Larkham's attacking structure now that I remember it). Anyway he suggested Hooper as a hybrid back/forward always created a backs/forwards mismatch for defence as he was both too fast/athletic for the forwards and too powerful for the backs and that these mismatches were hard to create with Larkham's continuity attack plan.
Strewthcobber
Simon Poidevin (60)
Interesting choice by the marketers for TRC this year
Bullrush
Geoff Shaw (53)
I still don't get the infatuation with Hooper. I wouldn't bother trying to make 'Pooper' work. When you look at the back row, you pick Pocock first, Fardy 2nd and then one of these other guys - Holloway or Browning or whoever (geez Vaea is a massive loss for Aussie rugby) - and either they step up to the role or you keep looking or developing a proper 8.
Hooper can fight for a bench spot with McMahon, Gill and whoever else is having a crack.
Hooper can fight for a bench spot with McMahon, Gill and whoever else is having a crack.
ForceFan
Peter Fenwicke (45)
Enjoying the discussion and the differing viewpoints.
To assist, here's the same lot of numbers for those currently playing No 8 in Australia.
Comments:
1. Have included Adam Thomson to indicate the type of opposition our No 8s are up against. He's had another good year.
2. Have not included Palu's stats as he has averaged only 35 minutes per game in 2016.
3. Butler is not used as a regular Line Out option for the Brumbies. He has only the single LOW in 2016.
4. Jed Holloway is a tear-away ball carrier and the best point scorer in this group.
5. Holloway has very little involvement at the breakdown for the Waratahs and earns very few TOW. Despite that he has a fairly high Penalty count. Hence my previous comments about his defensive game.
6. Ben McCalman has had a below par year since returning from Japan. He was only hitting his straps in the last couple of games before the June Tests and hasn't played since.
7. The numbers show Curtis Browning's potential but like Butler is currently too light for this position in Test rugby. Both players are about 105kg.
To assist, here's the same lot of numbers for those currently playing No 8 in Australia.
Comments:
1. Have included Adam Thomson to indicate the type of opposition our No 8s are up against. He's had another good year.
2. Have not included Palu's stats as he has averaged only 35 minutes per game in 2016.
3. Butler is not used as a regular Line Out option for the Brumbies. He has only the single LOW in 2016.
4. Jed Holloway is a tear-away ball carrier and the best point scorer in this group.
5. Holloway has very little involvement at the breakdown for the Waratahs and earns very few TOW. Despite that he has a fairly high Penalty count. Hence my previous comments about his defensive game.
6. Ben McCalman has had a below par year since returning from Japan. He was only hitting his straps in the last couple of games before the June Tests and hasn't played since.
7. The numbers show Curtis Browning's potential but like Butler is currently too light for this position in Test rugby. Both players are about 105kg.
Highlander35
Steve Williams (59)
Don't worry, Rob Leota will be the Wobblies number 8 before too long, see unlike NSW and Patrick Sio, we sign our big powerful number 8s.
Bullrush
Geoff Shaw (53)
He's not an 8.
Just going off the stats ForceFan has put up, I'd say it would be between Browning & Butler. Those show that Hooper is actually NOT a better defender by a margin. Only Jed Holloway has a worse tackle success rate.
The thing I wonder about Hooper's ball carrying stats is how inflated are they by the longer runs and breaks he's made in mid-field and off set line-out moves? I mean, that's all good and it's nice that you have a back-rower who can burn some backs but it's not hugely important.
Gnostic
Mark Ella (57)
What the stats don't show Forcefan is the structures the sides are playing. With the McQueen like constant recycle game of the Brumbies and the way their forward pods are set up I'm not surprised that Butler is topping the rucks stats. Also need to consider the facts that he has spent a fair bit of time at 7 I believe since Pocock was injured.
Similarly Holloway is often positioned wide of the ruck much like Thompson and the ruck involvements are naturally lower. It comes back to the game plan to a large degree.
As for penalties I'd like to see some breakdown of what they were conceded for before making a determination. For instance Pocock gives away a lot for hands in the ruck in comparison to Hooper, but it would be very wrong to consider this a downside to Pocock simply because Hooper is not playing that on-ball role as much.
Pfitzy
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Different styles of ball running. Hooper edges him for pace, but Holloway has a bit more size and yes, is a lineout option. 13cm height advantage, 15kg weight advantage.
But we need to see if Holloway can be that Kieran Read style 8 and I don't think his fitness is there quite yet.
Another year in Super Rugby and we'll see if Cheika even likes him at that point.
But what does that even mean? He's not an 8. He's not a 7. He's not a 6. But he's fucking out there every game so he must be SOMETHING.
Sometimes I think we really get too bogged down in the number on a players back. It isn't the 1980s any more. Outside of scrum time, players roles are becoming more and more fluid.
The All Blacks are a prime example - all 8 forwards are expected to be good ball carriers, and operate in a backline. All 7 backs can hold their own in tight, and make big hits when necessary.
I reject your notion that Hooper is somehow a worse defender than those stated. I accept that may appear to be true based on those stats, but as always they don't tell the whole story. Hooper misses tackles because he gets into positions that other players can't - flying up on kick-chase, for example.
Any cursorary viewing of a Wallaby game from the last 12 months would show he leads our defensive line, and makes 2-3 big, inspirational hits a game. There is a reason he polls so high in 'player's player' counts, and defence is a huge part.
He also does run the ball in tight a lot, contrary to what people say. Look at the try he scored in the third test against the Poms, running off Nick Phipps in the 3rd channel from the ruck. He's scored the same try for the Tahs a few times this year, and also frequently takes hit-ups in the channels around the ruck.
He is a problematic player, because he doesn't fit into a role easily. People like to amplify his flaws, while ignoring the myriad of ways he is one of the best players in the world.
I like Jed Holloway, I like Curtis Browning, but IMO they don't hold a candle to Hooper at the moment, and I don't care what position you are talking about. I genuinely believe he is more physical than both of them.
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Brumby Runner
Jason Little (69)
I have always been a big fan of Hooper, often voting 3 points for him in test match MOTM polls, as I did in the third test against England. I don't try to highlight flaws in his skills or in the way he plays the game, but I'd really like to see the back row comprise Fardy, Pocock, Holloway with MH on the bench perhaps. I think the way Holloway plays at No 8 would complement the games of Fardy and Pocock just a bit better.
We would certainly miss Hooper's influence across the field, but that is a matter for the coaches to devise ways and means to fill the void. I think the bigger problem we have atm is the lack of a hard running, line breaking No 8 playing closer to the ruck, and in my mind, that player is Holloway.
We would certainly miss Hooper's influence across the field, but that is a matter for the coaches to devise ways and means to fill the void. I think the bigger problem we have atm is the lack of a hard running, line breaking No 8 playing closer to the ruck, and in my mind, that player is Holloway.
ATM, Holloway has been injured. But when he was, he was not the hard-running, line-breaking player close to the ruck all the time, more often the guy running in the wide channels as well. Doing kind of what Hooper does, with a taller frame. We're still looking for the guy in the close channels. Currently, I'm not sure he would complement Pocock and Fardy appreciably better than Hooper, although he could be a good lineout option. Maybe in time. I think there is a reason that Cheika has overlooked him - he doesn't do what Cheika wants his 8 to do, with the other players he wants to pick. Despite how much many of us rate him on here.
