The Wallabies Thread

[waiopehu oldboy]

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/i...yer-takes-aim-at-wallabies-players-not-cheika

I can kinda understand the players being "not fit enough" in June & that being the fault of the Super Rugby teams but if they're still "not fit enough" in August isn't that the fault of the Wobs coaching & S&C staff?

 

[fatprop]

It’s not as if we haven’t had good or successful coaches over the last 17 years. Clearly the major issue is not the coach.

All you have to do is have a beer and watch a NPC game to understand where the issue starts and finishes, depth/numbers, technique, efficiency and quality of play

We don't have a golden generation of players at the moment and there isn't an influx over the near future. As Hoiles has continued to say, look at the U21 results over the last few years. (And even our best player from the U21s, Perese, is off the NRL )

We had a head start for a while with a combination of a golden generation and a early investment in professionalism. Everyone has caught up to the latter and we clearly don't have the former.

So at the moment we can match the ABs for 30m with superior effort. But then we get tired, lose shape and get blown away.

These guys are putting in, the coaches are putting in; but we are being beaten by a more technically efficient, simply better side.

 

[fatprop]

Wayne Smith.

I think it is widely recognised that he was the coach who set-up the Crusaders framework and culture which is still largely in place today. I think the Chiefs won their titles while he was an assistant there. Head coach of the ABs but also assistant to both Henry and Hansen.

The Blues should be stalking him incessantly actually...LOL

We have two coaches from that structure trying to develop that Crusaders framework and culture, it will take time.

O'Gara has been providing some great insight into the culture

O'Gara is glowing in his assessment of the culture that coach Scott Robertson has developed in Canterbury, telling Andrew Gourdie and Jim Kayes that it's a stark contrast to that of European club teams.
"We are going well, but I think it is a group as opposed to just the team," O'Gara said.
"The preparation in the Crusaders - that is interesting. They practice what they preach, and their actions back their words.

"It is a very positive, engaging and respectful environment. Culture is the key word at the moment and you have to understand what that is and be true to that.
"Everyone drives culture at the Crusaders, which is a huge point of difference.
"Their humility is good, they're respectful and their values are good and their attitudes are great. It has been a fascinating six months with the Crusaders."
...............................................................
O'Gara said the competitiveness among the squad leaves no room for complacency, with all squad members in the running for a spot against the lowest-ranked quarter-finalist.
"We need everybody on-board and sometimes clubs say that but don't do it," O'Gara said.
"Razor [Scott Robertson] has been changing his selections to make everyone feel valued and wanted and that is important.
"We have a competitive group and some guys might not be happy they won't play this week.
"We have good competition for spots, but you can't beat the All Blacks' quality coming back into the team - but in saying that, it doesn't guarantee anything.
"After three months you wonder if this is going to maintain or sustain in terms of appetite for improvement.

 

[fatprop]

Offshore, because I want someone entirely free of infection by the running rugby myth and the gameplan cancers that are fed by it. Also, there's no one here remotely qualified. I think this relates to Reg's point a little bit - everyone (all the coaches we've had, that is) has had to deal with the supposed need to entertain

The aus market means it is required, if Aus rugby is shit and not a "viewing pleasure" there is always an AFL or NRL or overseas rugby game to switch over to

 

[Derpus]

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/i...yer-takes-aim-at-wallabies-players-not-cheika

I can kinda understand the players being "not fit enough" in June & that being the fault of the Super Rugby teams but if they're still "not fit enough" in August isn't that the fault of the Wobs coaching & S&C staff?

It's probably bullshit. The ABs just run teams off their feet.

 

[amirite]

No. I don't we agree at all. I'm not be creatively obtuse. Larkham should not be considered a candidate under any circumstances. There is nothing that this coaching panel has achieved in the last three years that remotely qualifies any of them for consideration.

Continuity would only be a factor if there had been some sort of success or a systemic improvement that could be demonstrated if that success was bloke by externals such as simply better performances from teams like the ABs significantly improving. I don't think there is any debate now that this is the case, I think it has been accepted by most that the Wallabies have not improved on any metric and in significant aspects have regressed.

Yes, but I didn't say Larkham should be considered, I said he'd be the only non-left field candidate to display it's slim pickings in the current marketplace.

Understand?

 

[amirite]

Wayne Smith.

I think it is widely recognised that he was the coach who set-up the Crusaders framework and culture which is still largely in place today. I think the Chiefs won their titles while he was an assistant there. Head coach of the ABs but also assistant to both Henry and Hansen.

The Blues should be stalking him incessantly actually...LOL

The reason Wayne has been an assistant for so long (and so successfully) is he doesn't want the stress of being a HC. Imagine the stress of being the Wallaby HC.

 

[Lorenzo]

The aus market means it is required, if Aus rugby is shit and not a "viewing pleasure" there is always an AFL or NRL or overseas rugby game to switch over to

It needs to be entertaining, my point is that focusing on style over results has helped get us to where we are now, thanks to the flawed notion that 'running rugby' is the only way people will be entertained. Its been discussed at length on this board that 'running rugby' is a myth, yet somehow it still makes it into the public remarks of the (now former) CEO and still influences what they do on the field, which is crash into a concrete wall 25 times in a row with no progress.

If the wallabies play smart rugby, they'll be more entertaining AND more successful.

We just don't have the kind of advantages you'd need to focus on style and winning when all the competition focuses on merely winning.

 

[Derpus]

It needs to be entertaining, my point is that focusing on style over results has helped get us to where we are now, thanks to the flawed notion that 'running rugby' is the only way people will be entertained. Its been discussed at length on this board that 'running rugby' is a myth, yet somehow it still makes it into the public remarks of the (now former) CEO and still influences what they do on the field, which is crash into a concrete wall 25 times in a row with no progress.

If the wallabies play smart rugby, they'll be more entertaining AND more successful.

We just don't have the kind of advantages you'd need to focus on style and winning when all the competition focuses on merely winning.

They showed they are willing to adapt in the Ireland series. They just didn't have the skill to pull it off. We don't have the players to compete with New Zealand, simple as that.

I think if Raelene had the money she'd throw everything at emulating the Kiwi model because it's demonstrably better than the shemozzle we have now. But, financially we are at the point where all funds are diverted to holding what little we have together.

 

[fatprop]

They showed they are willing to adapt in the Ireland series. They just didn't have the skill to pull it off. We don't have the players to compete with New Zealand, simple as that.

I think if Raelene had the money she'd throw everything at emulating the Kiwi model because it's demonstrably better than the shemozzle we have now. But, financially we are at the point where all funds are diverted to holding what little we have together.

While we have a democracy with a pseudo board all driving their own needs, there will be no real direction. NZ succeeds via a benevolent dictatorship who picks coaches, the style of play and ensures players are spread between the franchises. We have the ARU herding cats



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[Lorenzo]

They showed they are willing to adapt in the Ireland series. They just didn't have the skill to pull it off. We don't have the players to compete with New Zealand, simple as that.

Do you agree (or not) that the supposed need to play to a certain style has held us back in relation to the other tier 1 nations over what is now a long period?

Because I think it's pretty clear that it has. None of the teams with whom we want to compete seem to worry about (or publicly discuss, anyway) style, they just want to win. How are we expected to compete in an elite sporting environment when we have to make sure we play a sexy brand of rugby whilst also trying to win?

I mean, when we picked Link over White, who was the other coach in the running, it was frequently noted that Link would be more consistent with Australia's 'style'. What I'm saying is that we need to completely drop style as a consideration and just look at winning. Will this get us back to Number 2 in the rankings, consistently? Probably not. But it isn't going to be worse.

 

[Rebels3]

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/i...yer-takes-aim-at-wallabies-players-not-cheika

I can kinda understand the players being "not fit enough" in June & that being the fault of the Super Rugby teams but if they're still "not fit enough" in August isn't that the fault of the Wobs coaching & S&C staff?

This is part of the issue, the Wallabies staff have little to no say for 9months of the year. It's been reported that they have had a greater influence this year but the Super sides by in large run their own ship. Was interesting to hear Jeremy Paul the other day stating that from next year will be the first time all players will be taught to do things the same way, or at least implied the Super sides will implement this. I believe this was on the Fox Podcast if anyone was interested in it

 

[Tomikin]

This is part of the issue, the Wallabies staff have little to no say for 9months of the year. It's been reported that they have had a greater influence this year but the Super sides by in large run their own ship. Was interesting to hear Jeremy Paul the other day stating that from next year will be the first time all players will be taught to do things the same way, or at least implied the Super sides will implement this. I believe this was on the Fox Podcast if anyone was interested in it

So seen issues and putting in place a solution. That good.. I dont think we are unfit but we are under skilled comparably and our game plan runs us raggered its good against teams that play tight rugby as we can run them off the park against the black they soak it up and kill us on the counter and we can only keep up for 30 mins.

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[Derpus]

Do you agree (or not) that the supposed need to play to a certain style has held us back in relation to the other tier 1 nations over what is now a long period?

Because I think it's pretty clear that it has. None of the teams with whom we want to compete seem to worry about (or publicly discuss, anyway) style, they just want to win. How are we expected to compete in an elite sporting environment when we have to make sure we play a sexy brand of rugby whilst also trying to win?

I mean, when we picked Link over White, who was the other coach in the running, it was frequently noted that Link would be more consistent with Australia's 'style'. What I'm saying is that we need to completely drop style as a consideration and just look at winning. Will this get us back to Number 2 in the rankings, consistently? Probably not. But it isn't going to be worse.

Not to the point that it would make a substantial difference against the ABs. In the finer margins, it would have helped if we could execute a better tactical kicking game against Ireland.

But losing to Ireland isn't the cause of the current angst. Losing to the ABs for the 16th year in a row is.

 

[SouthernX]

It's probably bullshit. The ABs just run teams off their feet.

Then Cheika needs to pick a lineup that is built on speed.

Banks/Maddocks needs to immediately start even at the expense of more experienced players. We need the fastest guys at their position.

Cheika should never picked Hooper, Hodge, Genia if their match fitness hasn’t been up to scratch. Our captain has looked like a passenger out there with his recovering hamstring injury.

 

[Derpus]

Then Cheika needs to pick a lineup that is built on speed.

Banks/Maddocks needs to immediately start even at the expense of more experienced players. We need the fastest guys at their position.

Cheika should never picked Hooper, Hodge, Genia if their match fitness hasn’t been up to scratch. Our captain has looked like a passenger out there with his recovering hamstring injury.

Maybe. Somehow don't think these minor changes will suddenly result in a turn around on that 60 point deficit over two games.

FP's points are spot on. The players we have now just aren't good enough and that's because the systems we have to produce players don't spit out talented enough players. Fucking around with the coach and the team selection will get you minor gains (or losses; Larkham, who inevitably succeeds Cheika, is no where near as good). But to compete with the ABs you need long term structural change.

You should just take my approach, bin watching the Bledisloe, and enjoy all the other tests where Aus are still fairly competitive.

 

[Serge]

I think it is turnovers followed by poor transition to defence that is our worst problem. Eight tries directly from turnover ball absolutely killed us and blew out the scorelines. Allowing the ball to be stripped from you should be a droppable offence. Late to seal off at the ruck (thereby inviting pilfers) is inexcusable, as are poor passes or passes to no-one. If you can maintain your possession won in set piece against the ABs you are in with a chance. If a player is unable to treasure possession to the level required - find someone else more hungry.​

 

[Rebels3]

I suggest people read this fantastic article on some of the issues with Australian rugby.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/analysis-one-passage-play-sums-differences-blacks-wallabies

The choreographed style of play is causing issues at every level of Australian rugby. Personally i believe it stems from our success in the late 90s and early 00s, it's one of our only reflection points of success and is therefore blissfully looked at as the Australian way. It also probably indicates the strong Rugby League influence in our game, with players growing up watching and playing in the most structured form of 'rugby'.

 

[Ignoto]

Only issue I have with that article is the author not saying the cross field crab isn't Beale's fault. We've seen for years he's unable to run straight and prefers to run side ways and shovel shit behind him. It's exactly why he should never be in at 10.

If we've got To'omua in the squad, chuck Foley out of 10 and have Marko be on the inside shoulder of To'omua. God forbid we actually straighten our attack for once.

 

[RoffsChoice]

It will take injury or suspension to move Foley from 10, and I won't wish injury on any player.