The Wallabies Thread

[Up the Guts]

^^^
Agree completely TSR, Retallick is on another level and isn’t the benchmark that should be set for locks. Perhaps only Marx can be compared to him in terms of being so head and shoulders above the other top quality players in their positions (you could perhaps throw some elements of Pocock’s game in there with Marx and Retallick). Coleman is the closest we have to an all round lock in Retallick’s mould but he’s not yet at the stage where his presence alone routinely swings a match. Rodda and Arnold are both fine locks and are both good enough for the starting jersey so much so you could pick either one depending on what sort of opposition you were meeting and the game plan you wanted to play.

 

[fo!!ower]

Th
Fn

 

[Derpus]

^^^
Agree completely TSR, Retallick is on another level and isn’t the benchmark that should be set for locks. Perhaps only Marx can be compared to him in terms of being so head and shoulders above the other top quality players in their positions (you could perhaps throw some elements of Pocock’s game in there with Marx and Retallick). Coleman is the closest we have to an all round lock in Retallick’s mould but he’s not yet at the stage where his presence alone routinely swings a match. Rodda and Arnold are both fine locks and are both good enough for the starting jersey so much so you could pick either one depending on what sort of opposition you were meeting and the game plan you wanted to play.

Marx is such a weird player. He's waaaaay too tall for a hooker. Has the athleticism and play style of a really good flanker, but also throws lineouts and strikes in scrums. Reminds me of a little of Eales in that he can do a bit of everything and it's all pretty damn good.

 

[fatprop]

Marx is only 6ft 2, he looks like a THP and plays like a backrower

Marx is such a weird player. He's waaaaay too tall for a hooker. Has the athleticism and play style of a really good flanker, but also throws lineouts and strikes in scrums. Reminds me of a little of Eales in that he can do a bit of everything and it's all pretty damn good.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

 

[Derpus]

Marx is only 6ft 2, he looks like a THP and plays like a backrower

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Eh he seems lanky on TV, he's definitely not archetypal anyway.

 

[Brumby Runner]

TSR, if Retallick is the measure of an all round lock, then there is only one currently playing the game. It just doesn't hold water to say that any lock falling short of Retallick's standard just doesn't measure up as an all round lock.

In truth, there is a spectrum of abilities and capabilities that locks will fall onto. At the top end is Retallick with his combination of aggressive play and traditional skills. Towards the bottom end (of current test playing locks) is Simmons. To be blunt, Rob Simmons has one skill, being a lineout operator, where he measures up to test standard, and I will continue to argue that is a skill that is reducing in influence in the modern game.

Each of Coleman, Arnold and Rodda appear on the spectrum somewhere between Retallick and Simmons. On this year's form, Arnold is closest of the Aus locks to the standards set by Retallick. Coleman has been a little off his game over the season due to injury, but both are more aggressive in the way they play the game than Rodda, who in turn has a more aggressive approach than Simmons. All three are skilful where needed.

If I was the national selector, I would certainly start both Arnold and Coleman in my team and have Rodda on the bench, especially in the matches v the ABs. We need to be able to match or better the ABs for skills and aggression up front if we want to be competitive.

 

[Rebels3]

All the best locks in the world are offering so much more than the traditional role, same as how props can no longer be just scrummagers.

Retalick
Whitelock
Barrett
Etzebeth
De Jager
PST
Itoje
Launchbury
Lawes
Ryan
Beirne
Nakarawa
AWJ
Hill
J Gray
Petti
Lavanini
The French Behemouths

All are athletes capable of mixing it up either physically, skillfully, technically or often now a combination of all. Each and everyone of them brings something away from the traditional game.

Then we look at our good stable of locks

Coleman
Rodda
Arnold
Simmons
Phillip

We need to look at this lot and see which one of these can go toe to toe and impact a game like these guys do.

 

[Braveheart81]

Aside from a few on that list, most seem to be pretty standard locks.

 

[Derpus]

Aside from a few on that list, most seem to be pretty standard locks.

Might be underselling it somewhat.

 

[TSR]

Yes, every player is different. No lock has a singular set of skills at the exclusion of other desirable traits. My point is that locks are generally picked in pairs with complimentary skills and I disagree with the view that we have to pick our biggest two locks with a view to making impact (edit: unless maybe Cheika drops Tui & I doubt that will happen)

Otherwise I think I have already expressed my view enough on the other aspects of specific locks and the relative pecking order.

 

[Braveheart81]

Might be underselling it somewhat.

They're undoubtedly good by virtue that they're the best locks in World Rugby (excluding any Australian ones).

Suggesting that most on that list have a bunch of attributes that most of ours don't possess is stretching the truth in my opinion.

Coleman is certainly our only world class lock currently. All of our others have pros and cons. All do their core job pretty well.

 

[Rebels3]

They're undoubtedly good by virtue that they're the best locks in World Rugby (excluding any Australian ones).

Suggesting that most on that list have a bunch of attributes that most of ours don't possess is stretching the truth in my opinion.

Coleman is certainly our only world class lock currently. All of our others have pros and cons. All do their core job pretty well.

No one suggested any don't possess the attributes. I believe Coleman is the most underrated lock in the world (only Australian's are aware of his abilities).I believe we have 3/4 players that are already the equal, some might be better than a lot on this list, or will be in the future. But i'd be lying if i said i believe Simmons belongs in this list and what he offers, that's where this conversation started and where i am still leaning towards. I do respect your decision to disagree tho, everyone to their own.

My argument is look at Simmons and what he offers, compare it to the rest of the locks around the world and it just isn't what the standard is been set in 2018 on an international level, there needs to be more than efficient around the field and proficient in the set piece. We have other players that can do a job at set piece but also make other players roles around the park easier by providing something more be it ball carrying, pilfering, physicality etc. He is a very late 90s early/mid 00s style lock, he is a solid performer but we need to look at players that might be good/great players if we are going to take the Wallabies to where we want them to be.

 

[Braveheart81]

I get exactly where you're coming from.

And where I'm coming from is that Cheika isn't going to focus a large amount of attention on getting a bench lock to the relevant level so they can be the backup lineout caller to Coleman in the limited time available before the RWC next year. I think that will remain Simmons' role for now.

It would appear that Cheika sees Rodda as the workrate lock he wants starting (rather than Arnold) so he doesn't want his spot to be on the bench.

 

[Rebels3]

I get exactly where you're coming from.

And where I'm coming from is that Cheika isn't going to focus a large amount of attention on getting a bench lock to the relevant level so they can be the backup lineout caller to Coleman in the limited time available before the RWC next year. I think that will remain Simmons' role for now.

It would appear that Cheika sees Rodda as the workrate lock he wants starting (rather than Arnold) so he doesn't want his spot to be on the bench.

Good chance for Phillip on Friday

 

[cyclopath]

Good chance for Phillip on Friday

Or Philip.

 

[Rebels3]

cyclopath as it is your name/avatar should start with a capital C, if we are splitting hairs

 

[Derpus]

I googled it and Cyclopath is also a bike routes app.

 

[cyclopath]

cyclopath as it is your name/avatar should start with a capital C, if we are splitting hairs

A better analogy would be whether extra letters in the middle matter - cycloopath, cycloppath and so on. His name is Philip, not Phillip, or Phillips, or Philips. I just reckon we should try to get them right.

 

[cyclopath]

I googled it and Cyclopath is also a bike routes app.

Not once my lawyers get onto them, it isn't!

 

[upthereds#!]

Eh he seems lanky on TV, he's definitely not archetypal anyway.

Still at 188cm 120kg (so a weapon). Basically same size as Uelese but a bit more muscle/leaner. Very similar build and play style to Bismark Duplessis (189cm/114kg)

Strauss, Coles, Taylor, Harris, hartley, george all 183-186cm

Archetypal hookers these days are basically lean props/ mass centric, slower open sides

Marx is a quality version of the new archetype I would say. Duplessis changed the mold.