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The Wallabies problem positions: Discussion thread.

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Brumbieman

Dick Tooth (41)
So, we all know it.

What the Wallabies are sorely lacking, and keeps letting us down, is the fact that we don't have decent enough incumbents in 3 crucial positions: 5, 6 and 8.

Horwill is one lock, but the other is a problem. Sharpie may be playing well, but he's old. We won't magically develop an international quality 2nd row from no where, we need to find one.

What are our options here? I mentioned this on the front row thread, but I think we need a different style of 2nd row to Horwill. A Brad Thorn, Bakkies Botha, Vickerman etc type 2nd row. A tighthead supporting 2nd row who just LIVES to kybosh All Black's who are lying on the wrong side of the ruck/slowing ball down/offside/off their feet etc. Who does this well? Simmons looked great last year but has really fallen off. Fardy has been doing it well at the Brumbies, as have Luke Jones (REALLY big potential in this kid) and Hugh Pyle.


Blindside: Elsom is kaput. Even if he holds it together, there is no sense picking him. He was very, very average during the world cup, and was playing with a buggered shoulder and hammies. (I wont even speculate why, we all know why [Deans]). Time for the glue factory.

So, who else? Higginbotham is the obvious choice, but there are obviously Mowen and Dennis. I'm not interested in anyone less than 190-195cm. They need to be a lineout option.

Number 8: HUGE problem for us. Palu isn't it. He's old, very injury prone, punches well below his weight, and is never going to get any better than what we've seen so far, which is not good enough to oppose Kieren Reid.

So who else is there? Ita Vaea has to be the next option, despite him being behind Auleaelaualauleualuala (who is a potential option) for the moment. He puts in great hits, cleans out well at the rucks, has nice soft hands, and, wait for it, ACTUALLY GETS OVER THE GAIN LINE. And he does that BEFORE he looks for the offload, instead of stepping onto his front foot and stopping, turning (almost before taking contact) immediately and looking for an offload, which Palu does.

The effect is very simple. If Vaea runs into and then over the top of at least one player, it takes another to stop him. If the 2nd player does, by that point Vaea is already 3-4m futher upfield, and behind the gainline, which means that our players run forward into the ruck, and the opposition have to run back around BEHIND to get in through the gate. It creates momentum, and creates many more linebreaks because the offload goes to a player who has no one in front of him.

In short, the same effect that everyone says Palu creates, but he just doesn't. He was flattened by a fecking SCRUMHALF on Saturday night. Caught the ball, ran 4m and was hammered by the Rebels 9, and immediately went down. If this is the best rampaging ball running number 8, to put us on the front foot with ball in hand and truck it up, then we're truly fucked.

The other thign to consider with the backrow is balance. A champion backrow is always made up of players who complement each other, and work well as a unit. Eg McCaw, So'oialo and Collins, or McCaw, Kaino and Reid. etc

If we go with Higginbotham, a notorious seagull, then we would have to find a hard running, gain line making 8 who does a lot of work in the tight, to support Pocock. Higginbotham is great at running loose and wide in space and making metres there, but his work in the tight in minimal, so that needs to be considered when choosing the 8. So someone like Vaea or Mowen. Or you go with two hardworking backrowers, and another more dynamic 2nd rower.

Tis all about balance.
 

Empire

Syd Malcolm (24)
I like the look of Fotu Auelua - especially considering he didn't cop the flogging that other Brumbies did over the off season.

His game against the Bulls indicated to me that there is plenty of room to improve his overall conditioning - very heartening. He is big, quick and intimidating.

As the season progresses and his fitness increases, I hope to see more of the strong runs and big hits we saw in the bulls match.
 

rugbysmartarse

Alan Cameron (40)
This will be the second time I've brought him up in a similar thread, and I don't want to cop a rep, but sitaleki timani is big, tough as a $2 steak, and a workhorse at the ruck. Pyle is probably getting more of a look in at the moment, as Kane Douglas is keeping Sita on the bench. Either of these 3 play a hard tight game that would allow a looser 6.
 

Brumbieman

Dick Tooth (41)
I like the look of Fotu Auelua - especially considering he didn't cop the flogging that other Brumbies did over the off season.

His game against the Bulls indicated to me that there is plenty of room to improve his overall conditioning - very heartening. He is big, quick and intimidating.

As the season progresses and his fitness increases, I hope to see more of the strong runs and big hits we saw in the bulls match.

Agreed, its a brutal pairing, him an Vaea. I'm worried that we haven't re-signed Vaea yet, as he's very young, and Fotu is not...
 

ChargerWA

Mark Loane (55)
I think you have undersold Horwill a bit. I think he can play the enforcer lock role well enough, certainly well enough not to ignore Pyle for fear he isn't tough enough and Pyle will also call the lineout.
 

Brumbieman

Dick Tooth (41)
I don't think he is. People have this mindset that a fully-fit Palu is a wrecking ball, at ALL LEVELS of rugby, and is world class. He just isn't! Maybe because he hasn't been fully fit since......Italy in about 2006 was the last game of his at international level that he played to the level of hype and expectation that is associated with him.

He's never stood up against a tri-nations opponent, and at his age he's not going to get any better. With the Lions next year, why fuck around? If he's miraculously healthy and playing, then i'll eat my hat. If not, we'll have wasted another year of potential development for a younger player who actually does make the metres we need from a Number 8.

Vaea with 2 seasons of international rugby, and the experience learned from that, is just so much more appealing than hoping for a miracle, so that we can play Palu and watch him be mediocre against a very destructive looking Lions backrow.
 

barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
But you can't just say 'let's give player X 2 years on international experience, he'll be unstoppable!'. Have a look at Ben McCalman as an example of how that can turn out. You can't assume that just because someone is playing at that level they will become accustomed and eventually dominate.

At the moment Vaea is Palu lite. Not as explosive and makes more mistakes. Will that change in two years? Who knows. Aulea is showing promising signs, but has only played two games. Mowen is a grafter but is he a test player? Somehow I doubt it.

Palu is injury prone, sure, but still the best we have. I'm not saying he is a World Class player, but he's what we've got.
 

jay-c

Ron Walden (29)
i recon the best option is to have vaea perform what we had planned for the world cup before palus injury
being the palu/ samo interchange wrecking ball combo-
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
Palu has been making big metres every time he runs the ball this season.

He is easily the form 8 from the Australian provinces. Everything that has been said about him being injury prone is true, but at the moment he is fit and playing well.

I agree with barbarian that we can't just pick a guy like Vaea because he shows promise. He's doing well for the Brumbies but there is no guarantee he is going to turn into a world beater.
 

cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
Vaea has been playing some nice cameos, mainly at the back end of games. Making good metres, not doing a mountain of breakdown work. Palu has been playing 50-60 minutes at the front end of games, which, I would hazard a guess, is a harder period in which to make metres. But he is making them.
Sure, he has had injury problems, but currently he is stringing some games together.
It would be nice to see Vaea playing those minutes, and compare apples with apples. He certainly shows promise, but has not surpassed Palu yet.
Neither are the best in the world, but we don't generally have the luxury in Oz of picking every position from amongst the best in the world.
 
P

Paradox

Guest
Palu, when fit, is still number the 1 8 ;) . Vaea is the future and Aulea could be a handful if 100% fit. Not bad options.
 

Dumbledore

Dick Tooth (41)
Soo... Brumbies supporters think it should be Vaea, Tahs supporters think it should be Palu. I'm going to do my very, very best to be surprised. And I'm ignoring Paradox because he's being, well, a paradox.
 

Slim 293

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Soo... Brumbies supporters think it should be Vaea, Tahs supporters think it should be Palu. I'm going to do my very, very best to be surprised. And I'm ignoring Paradox because he's being, well, a paradox.

Nah, Brumbieman has always had it in for Palu...

I rate Palu, and would start with him...

However, I think we need to look for better alternatives for when he's not fit...

McCalman and Samo are obviously not up to it...

The 3 Brumbies mentioned are possibilities, as is having one of either Dennis or Higginbotham fill in there...

I think Australia has the players, but whether or not the coaching or tactics is good enough is another thing...
 
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