The Wallabies at the end of 2011

[Lee Grant]

Slipper will have to prove himself as a THP at the Reds before we think of him as a THP for the Wobs. If he stayed healthy the whole 2011 Super season we may have seen that proof this year but he missed the 2nd half and we didn't. He could prove himself in 2012 or the year after, it's not a young man's position unless he was made for it.

You can see why Link wants to play Slipper in the 3 jersey: it leaves Daley, who is a decent enough scrummager at the Super level, to start at LHP. But it will do nothing for Slipper's development as a LHP and, as indicated on the podcast: it will do him no favours for Wallaby selection there, nor for his performance for Oz in that spot when he is on the park. I hope that Holmes, who was a real eye-opener at THP for the Reds in the Super semi and final, gets a shot at playing there in 2012 so that Slipper can play LHP a few times.

Kepu did prove himself at THP for the Tahs by switching there about the same time as Slipper was unavailable for the Reds, and ended up as the best Oz qualified THP in Super Rugby. Unfortunately LHP Fat Cat was injured before the 1st test match this year and Slipper was still unavailable; so Kepu had to play LHP which left Alexander as the THP again.

But would Deans have picked Kepu at THP for 3N and later had everybody been healthy from the beginning? I wouldn't bet a sheep station on it, or even a lamb chop. I'm guessing that Alexander would have started there anyway,

It was good to hear that Darwin thought that a THP (Kepu) was playing LHP and that a LHP (Alexander) was playing THP this year for the Wallabies.

I think Blind Freddy wrote a post to that effect.

 

[Rob]

I am not a fan of props swapping and changing between LHP and THP. They are two very different positions requiring different strengths and techniques. Very few props can do it effectively. There may be a view amongst players that if you put your hand up as both there is a better chance of being selected. However, ultimately this doesnt do the player or Australia any good. Benny Robbo is one of the few that sticks to one side and he is bloody good at it. IMO slipper is not much good at either so I suggests he picks a side and gets better at it.

 

[Lee Grant]

Good post Rob - but we don't know what Slipper's take on all this is (unless I missed some comment of his). He would say he will play anywhere that will benefit the Reds - but he may also be thinking that playing THP wouldn't be improving his play as LHP where he would be 1st or 2nd in the Wallabies' pecking order instead of 3rd, 4th or maybe even 5th on the other side.

It's probably not a case of putting one's hand up but playing where he is picked.

Props should stick to one spot but a few evolve. Kepu was a backrower as a junior and was turned into a LHP for the NPC. When he came here he was a LHP. When Baxter was injured in Super Rugby this year Kepu was switched to the other side and played 7 games or so there before he was crocked himself. At the end of that gig in the 3 jersey he said that he no longer considered himself a LHP, but a THP.

I can't recall that he ever started a game as a THP before this year; so it was probably a bit of an epiphany for him. One hopes that he can play THP for most of the 2012 Super season but it Fat Cat misses the start he could find himself wearing the 1 jersey again.

 

[Rob]

Kepu is a bit of the exception as he is relatively new to the position and so didnt really know what he was - but from what I have seen he is a THP only - and showing promise. Perhaps you are correct Lee and the selectors are behind the swapping of side by props - if so it reflects a lack of understanding of the position. I yearn for the day when Australia has dominant front row.

 

[Lee Grant]

It's a pity from a Oz point of view that Slipper can't play LHP at the Reds - though one understands why, but it is working out better in the other Super squads because of retirements and moves.

Ma'afu will get to play every week at the Force now. Had he still been at the Brumbies Palmer could eat into his playing time, because that young man would have to be kept happy. Alexander can play on the LH side as he was before Palmer got hurt last season. That should keep him out of THP test contention.

At the Rebels Somerville is a huge loss but at least all the props are all Oz qualified now and who knows, PAE could even get on the park. (Though he probably would have got more time on at the Force backing up Ma'afu, being a THP.)

The retirement of Baxter will ensure that Kepu gets as many THP starts as he needs at the Tahs though there could be a hiccup if Fat Cat is not fit in the early rounds.

One of the exciting things with Super Rugby is that you know there are going to new players popping up, or not new players stepping up - but you have no clue who. I bet there is a prop who puts his hand up in 2012.

 

[Ruggo]

I guess we can see what injuries occur. Hypothetically speaking Lee Ben Daley becomes injured at the Reds. Does Link go with Holmes who is a traditional LH capable of both sides or does he shift the incumbant Wallaby LHP accross to the other side of the scrum and persist with Holmes in his adaption to play both sides.

Another thought is that with significant game time Greg Holmes's stock may rise again in that Wallaby front row equation as a response to the LHP shortage.

Another consideration with Mafu could be that being with the Force could see him becomming a much fitter player with a higher workload as he will have to keep up with a Force pack that plays on its strength of mobility.

The advantages that Palmer and Kepu will have this season is being part of a unit of three. Both the Brumbies and Tahs have quallity front rows and there is an option that selectors may take a view of inserting a known combination of three. This especially applies to the Tahs as a front row of Fatcat, TPN and Kepu could easily be inserted into test rugby.

 

[Lee Grant]

Some good thoughts in there Ruggo; all are valid, but I noticed Ma'afu getting around the park, or at least around the ruck, quite diligently in the Bronze game which belied his appearance. Then in the podcast it was mentioned that he had a lot of participations in the Cardiff test. Actually I don't mind a THP having a bit of weight on him but, in the case of Ma'afu, you wouldn't want him playing for too long in any game.

Just another thought: it would be good, hypothetically, if the Rebels could swap a THP for a Reds' LHP. Both teams are a bit out of balance.

 

[Ruggo]

I agree Lee. This is probably worth a thread of it's own but is raises the issue of a dynamic of a pack as one other than the traits of eight individuals. Eg, Dan Palmer great scrummager but you need to select the other 7 with an emphasis to carry his load in workrate. Higgenbotham is another example as you want the other 7 to carry his workload in the tight to give him that freedom to be at his most effective. Players like a Ben McCalman then come into the picture too offset the loss in workrate in the tight. I agree regarding Mafu and the counter to what I said earlier is the force have a pack capable of taking his slack in workrate. When discussing the selection of player x it is importent to asses how it will effect the role and the expectations of player y. I wish I had a telepathic ability to read into a coaches mind to understand the reason behind their selections in more depth.

 

[RugbyReg]

Ruggo you talk of picking the right 7 to balance the workload of Higgers. Ironically in a thread discussing the merits of Slipper and Daley because I think it is actually the Reds front row, including Saia, that have the workload to 'cover' for DK and Higgers, or allow them some flexibility in attack and defense. I was blown away by how hard the Reds front row worked this season. Slipper and Daley in particular worked in tandem so effectively.

 

[Sully]

Heard from a pretty reliable source that Daley topped the tackle count and had the highest tackle completion rate in the club. Pretty sure he said 96%

 

[Lee Grant]

That's impressive, but to be picked as a prop for the Wallabies he has to show that he he is likely to scrummage better than the likes of Slipper and Robinson on the LH side and - who knows what Deans will think - maybe he has to be better than Kepu and Alexander also.

Scrummaging has to come first; the rest of it is important only as a tie-breaker.