The Size of our Aussie Forwards

[Viking]

Am i the only one who thinks they lack a lot of Size and strength, I certainly don't think they lack any skill. Sure we got TPN n Palu, then who else! Everyone of the Boks seem to be twice the size, including their back-ups.

"has dropped a heap of kgs" I always hear this in forums and wonder why its a good thing for a Forward to weigh less. If they are Fat, they still shouldn't be dropping KGs they should be replacing their Fat with Muscle (muscle weighs more then Fat - meaning they can lose lots of fat n gain little muscle without losing kgs), So if they are dropping kgs IMO they aren't doing enough weights in the gym and their diet isn't up to standards. People who weigh more are harder to Move..... Lets keep our Forwards Big Especially the Props and Numbers 8's. Any day of the week Id prefer a number 8 who's hard to bring down (Kepu), Compared to a Fast Mover (Spies).

I think a great example is Mowen, Now that he's put on size he's had a larger impact and could be a possibility for the wallabies.

Whats the solution? Start Strength training and Diet programs younger?

 

[Scotty]

You want kepu as an 8? Or did you mean Kefu?

 

[Dunnman]

Sounds like they need to eat more protein and get bigger muscles.

 

[Empire]

Maybe it's genetics, when I was in Holland, it felt like the average height was well over 6"4' - men and women - scary.

Perhaps the Bokke players inherit some of this?

Aside from that, most of the players look 'gym fit' - I'd say its training and focus. Kiwis and Saffers seem to take more pleasure in clearing out, scrummaging and the like.

 

[barbarian]

Whats the solution? Start Strength training and Diet programs younger?

No. Big no.

I don't think they lack size and strength at all. They lack mongrel (for want of a better word). We have plenty of big boys going round, but very few have that rabid killer instinct that you see in most Saffers and a lot of Kiwis. Mark Chisolm is a prime example.

See latest G&GR podcast for more details.

 

[cyclopath]

They don't lack size, and strength as measured by things such as bench presses etc...
However, as my esteemed colleague Bruce Ross would say much better, that sort of conditioning may be redundant. Players like Mowen, Higgers et al look nice and buff, but use their size poorly for the main part. A bit like Spies, who is constantly lauded as a super specimen of an athlete, but frequently underwhelms in the really tough games. George Smith was much more like a Kiwi in that he looked less gym-built, but clearly had a great motor and superb core strength that not only enabled longevity, but made him superbly functional. Look at the better Kiwi forwards - McCaw, Read, Thorn, Kaino are all bloody strong and tough, but most importantly use all of it to advantage. Kev Mealamu gets over the advantage line just about all the time, doesn't break very much but is hardly massive.
The mystic quality of mongrel, as BaaBaa said, is what we need to see more of.

 

[Groucho]

It's not size, as several posters have said. Man for man the Wallaby forwards (especially if you include Palu) outweight their Kiwi opponents and they're only a handful of kg in total short of the Saffas.

 

[Bullrush]

So new name for thread should be something like:

The Size of our Aussie Forwards Hearts? Balls? Mongrel?

 

[Godfrey]

It's a bit simplistic and unrealistic to say forwards shouldn't ever have to drop weight (because they replace the weight with muscle). E.g. look at someone like Rodney Blake weighing 140kgs (or whatever): he SHOULD be getting that weight down and NOT be replacing it with 20kgs of muscle (not that that's an easy/timely thing to do in itself).

 

[Gagger]

Of our big boys Sharpey is about the only one who runs into contact at the right height, and surprise surprise he always makes yards and rarely gets turned over.

 

[Groucho]

Of our big boys Sharpey is about the only one who runs into contact at the right height, and surprise surprise he always makes yards and rarely gets turned over.

He used not to, though. He used to always go straight to ground, until he got dropped and sorted himself out.

 

[cyclopath]

Of our big boys Sharpey is about the only one who runs into contact at the right height, and surprise surprise he always makes yards and rarely gets turned over.

The other thing I notice about the better crash-ballers from other teams is they run from depth - there always seems to be someone with some pace up ready to hit it in a pod of 2 men at least. A lot of our guys, especially the above mentioned seem to think a 2m run-up against a couple of 115kg monsters will be enough; and they are often alone. We don't seem to employ pods very effectively. It seems to be a different philosophy for some reason, but it hasn't worked for a long time, so it might be time for rethink.

 

[Gagger]

He used not to, though. He used to always go straight to ground, until he got dropped and sorted himself out.

I think he still heads down (agreed, not as much), but that is still far preferable (and deliberate I assume) than maybe making an extra metre, but getting wrestled back 3, or held up, thereby allowing the defence to re-organise. Quick hit-up with fast re-cycle so much better, also enables pick and go.

The other thing I notice about the better crash-ballers from other teams is they run from depth - there always seems to be someone with some pace up ready to hit it in a pod of 2 men at least. A lot of our guys, especially the above mentioned seem to think a 2m run-up against a couple of 115kg monsters will be enough; and they are often alone. We don't seem to employ pods very effectively. It seems to be a different philosophy for some reason, but it hasn't worked for a long time, so it might be time for rethink.

For the first game or two the Tahs got past this by using the man driving on the hip, but this has all but disappeared now.

 

[Blue]

For the last couple of years there has been little difference in the SA and Aus pack weights.

Maybe soemoen can dig up some stats? Will do if nobody has posted something by tomorrow

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

It's the size of the fight in the dog, or words to that effect. We have some big blokes who play "below their weight", but it's not all bad. Guys like TPN, Moore, Rock, Cock, McCalman and Kev all have the necessary mongrel to be good international forwards. Sharpie almost falls into that category, but he's more about work rate than aggression (and stellar lineout marshalling). Guys not in the starting line up like Waugh, Hodgson and Van all play with the requisite hardness at the ball (and occasionally the man).

 

[Shiggins]

I agree. We have some big boys but it's all about the aggression. Look at the highlanders hooker. Last year he was a menace. Jerry Collins. Adam de malmuach or what ever. These guys have the intensity. Moore isn't bad at it.

It's how brown was 2 years ago. That's what got him into the wallabies.

It does come back too specialist. We need a tight head specialist not a tight head on the wing trying too score try's.

The tight five need too do there job and that's ball security after a good hit up and counter rucking after making a dominant tackle.


Go the force!!!!

 

[Larno]

I agree. We have some big boys but it's all about the aggression. Look at the highlanders hooker. Last year he was a menace.

You mean Jason Rutledge right? Great example of why ticker is everything. At 175cm and 99kg he's smaller and lighter than even the likes of Saia Fainga'a but has the grunt to compensate and then some.

Look at the current French loosehead Thomas Domingo. He's only 173cm and 112kg but gleefully murders just about any international tighthead put in front of him come scrum time due to his aggression, power and good technique.

It seems to me that in the last few years a strong element of 'glamour' (for want of a better word) has embedded itself into the Australian rugby psyche (observe Coops, Gits, Mitchell and the like) and it may have infiltrated into the mindset of some of the forwards out there (looking at you Benny A and S Finger). This is very much at odds with the dirty, ugly and distinctly unglamorous nature of the work that is every forward's bread and butter when he takes the field. Indeed one could argue that the best forwards tend to be dirty, ugly and distinctly unglamorous...

 

[Shiggins]

You mean Jason Rutledge right? Great example of why ticker is everything. At 175cm and 99kg he's smaller and lighter than even the likes of Saia Fainga'a but has the grunt to compensate and then some.

Yeah mate. Spot on!

Go the force!!!!

 

[dobduff11]

A mate of mine that I talk too quite often is always going on about Georges St pierre the UFC guy and his workout structure.

Apparently he trains with the olympic Canadian wrestling squad who have the one of best S&C setups going around. If you look at some of the other UFC guys they are stacked and probably bench more than him but he still kicks their arse. I think this is a similar comparison to the all blacks and the rest of the world.

I am no expert but it seems the Kiwis have a different workout style to everyone else and it really shows with their dynamism at ruck time. I mean look at Richie McCaw half the time he doesn't even fill out the sleeves on his jerseys, whereas someone like Mark Chisholm has 30 inch biceps yet cant shift a ruck in a super rugby match.

Having said that the mongrel attitude applies just as much, mindset is so important for defence and rucking. From the current crop I reckon TPN, Palu, Pocock, McCalman, Moore and Sharpey to some extent have this quality.

Just so happens that probably every member of the All Black pack has that mongrel attitude

 

[ACT Crusader]

The other thing I notice about the better crash-ballers from other teams is they run from depth - there always seems to be someone with some pace up ready to hit it in a pod of 2 men at least. A lot of our guys, especially the above mentioned seem to think a 2m run-up against a couple of 115kg monsters will be enough; and they are often alone. We don't seem to employ pods very effectively. It seems to be a different philosophy for some reason, but it hasn't worked for a long time, so it might be time for rethink.

Good point cyclo. I look at a player like Sione Lauaki who for all intents and purposes was a big lug and damaging ball runner. However his effectiveness was severely thwarted when the Chiefs started playing very flat and Lauaki was often receiving the ball at 1st or 2nd receiver and vetting gang tackled. But when he was coming from deep he was almost impossible to stop or dragged 3 & 4 players with him. This how the ABs used him

But even smaller forwards are effective being used in this manner

Rugby all shapes and sizes and all that stuff