The Relationship Between the Schools, the Clubs, the Unions and the ARU

[USARugger]

So for the past few days I have been trying to gain a comprehensive understanding of the legal relationship or general power structure in Australian Rugby between the Schools, Clubs, Unions and the ARU as a central governing body. I haven't had too much luck. Particularly with determining how the interaction actually works from the School/Club level ---> Unions ---> ARU. If there's anyone on here who could sum up the entire system from the Territorial level and then the National level, you would be my hero. From the digging I've done online the only consensus seems to be that the whole thing is one giant mess.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Ok, the general power structure works like this: if you went to a GPS school in Sydney or live in Mosman you can be a Chairman, board member, wallaby coach or CEO
The graphic below doesnt tell you much about "power".

There is no relationship between the schools and clubs.
There is no relationship between the school rep sides/pathway and the club rep sides/pathway.
I think that the 2 first combine as NSW Schools u16 level - but even then when they play in the National Champs there are 2 NSW schools sides and NSW Country and Sydney JRU teams, from recollection.
Some kids live in the country and go to school in the city so they may be eligible for all 3 teams, i think.
Its a mess - but it does broaden the number of kids who get exposed to this level of rugby from that which would be the case if their were a linear pathway.
If you wait a few weeks you will see the debate that arises concerning which team has priority in the selection process.

 

[USARugger]

What about the Unions and the ARU in relationship to the schools? Say we're talking about a private/public school in NSW, does the NSWRFU have any regulatory power here? I'm assuming if they don't then neither does the ARU by proxy.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

What about the Unions and the ARU in relationship to the schools? Say we're talking about a private/public school in NSW, does the NSWRFU have any regulatory power here? I'm assuming if they don't then neither does the ARU by proxy.

As I understand it the structure means that the school systems (which are listed on the link below) "affiliate" to their state schools union - so NSW Schools Rugby Football Union: http://www.nswschoolsrugby.rugbynet.com.au/
Which is connected to the Australian Schools RFU, which is a union affiliated to the ARU.
This structure means that there is no body having direct control over both the schools and the clubs - just the way the GPS schools want it.

 

[Man on the hill]

As I understand it the structure means that the school systems (which are listed on the link below) "affiliate" to their state schools union - so NSW Schools Rugby Football Union: http://www.nswschoolsrugby.rugbynet.com.au/
Which is connected to the Australian Schools RFU, which is a union affiliated to the ARU.
This structure means that there is no body having direct control over both the schools and the clubs - just the way the GPS schools want it.

Inside Shoulder is correct - POLITICALLY its all about affiliation.



SCHOOLS - Individual schools affiliate to their organising union (in NSW - GPA, CAS , ISA etc. for the private schools & CHS for state schools). These organising bodies then affiliate to NSW Schools who in turn are affiliated to Australian Schools who then pledge allegiance (with their fingers crossed behind their back) to the ARU - the top dog!



CLUB - Clubs affiliate via Sydney Juniors, Sydney Juniors (along with NSW Country Juniors) affiliate with NSW Junior RU, who in turn affiliate with NSWRU, who in turn affiliate with ARU.



Convoluted!



The player development pathway is quite similar - in NSW each youth stream (Schools, SJRU & NSWCJRU) has rep teams at various ages. In under 16 there is a talent sharing protocol which has worked well for a few years - aim is to ensure that no one of serious talent gets left behind - this opens the door for much discussion that a player ranked 36 should be ranked 37 and vice versa.



The high performance squads in the graphic posted by IS are ARU funded "grass roots" initiatives. Candidates are identified in a wide range of means from U16 onwards.

 

[Sully]

The only thing I would add is that the super Rugby Teams have academies of mostly Premier rugby players They are grooming for Super Rugby.

Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF700T using Tapatalk HD

 

[Jaghond]

MOTH,
Shouldn't the AJRU ( Australian Junior Rugby Union) - or whatever it's current handle might be, also be attached to your list somewhere as affiliating with ARU ?

Going back in time, I understood that it was hoped ( by some) that the AJRU would attempt to become the peak body covering ALL Junior rugby..............but it doesn't seem that it turned out quite that way.

As many before have pointed out ( and quite correctly so, IMHO) - a complete "cluster u-know-what".

Jaghond

 

[CTPE]

MOTH,
Shouldn't the AJRU ( Australian Junior Rugby Union) - or whatever it's current handle might be, also be attached to your list somewhere as affiliating with ARU ?

Going back in time, I understood that it was hoped ( by some) that the AJRU would attempt to become the peak body covering ALL Junior rugby......but it doesn't seem that it turned out quite that way.

As many before have pointed out ( and quite correctly so, IMHO) - a complete "cluster u-know-what".

Jaghond

Happy to be proven wrong, but I don't think that there is actually an Australian Junior Rugby Union and that may be the real problem. Whilst there are state junior rugby unions (eg NSWJRU), major cities junior unions (eg Sydney - SJRU) and Country JRU's as well as Schools Rugby Unions at both State levels (NSWSRU) and National level (ASRU) there isn't an all encompassing AJRU - the ARU itself rules the roost itself at the highest junior level.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

There is an AJRU. It does things like write a report for the ARU annual report. They seem to attend some tournament and have a jolly good time doing what exactly it is that they do.

See this thread for discussion.
http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/co...n-junior-rugby-union.11657/page-3#post-426563

It has no web site so there is very little information publicly available on it. Some could claim that the Freemasons are more communicative. That being said, the AJRU gets space in the ARU annual report.

Having started the thread on the AJRU, some other Gaggerlanders joined me in the debate and eventually the thread managed to smoke out a VP of the AJRU, but things have gone silent of late. Everything seems to be draft or proposed or future proposals.

My thoughts about the usefulness of this organisation are documented on that thread, and nothing I have read or heard over the last year has given me cause to change that opinion. Toothless tiger and motorcycle ashtray spring to mind. It seems to be an organisation looking for a job.

Ultimately ARU need to define the roles and goals of this organisation and assist with resources. The Arbib report highlighted plenty of opportunities in this area.

 

[Jaghond]

I concur wholeheartedly, HJ.

And therein lies the rub !

There are potentially 2 “peak” bodies representing the same constituents, ( if my understanding is correct).

All those Under 18’s are supposedly at school ( hence the relevance of the ASRU) – whilst all these players would also fall into the pot as Juniors as well, thereby allowing them to be covered both the ASRU & the AJRU.

Doesn’t the crux of it come down to someone, somewhere, actually determining a formalized structure to encompass ALL junior rugby players - which in and of itself requires a determination as to who these p[layers are ? ( ie – everyone Under 18 at x date is regarded as a Junior – or something like that. I believe that there is currently discussion on other threads about this - and whether Juniors, for example, should go up to U16 only, and then have the Clubs / Colts system take over from U 17 ?)

Knowing some of the past & current protagonists in this area – I suspect that the Garling & Arbib Reports are gathering dust somewhere – and it will be only when someone actually forces a timetable for change – will things actually change.


( Such as when the ARU decreed the commencement of the Rugby Pathway – which caused all Participants to actually front at the old Subbies offices in Crows Nest to commence to thrash out a “doable” position – which to their credit, they actually did….eventually ! Mind you, there were some pretty heated “discussions” along the way – and everyone was pretty passionate about protecting their own little groups – as they should be )

Maybe something for Mr Pulver to consider ??? ( although I doubt that he will make many friends by being the catalyst for change

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I concur wholeheartedly, HJ.

And therein lies the rub !

There are potentially 2 “peak” bodies representing the same constituents, ( if my understanding is correct).

All those Under 18’s are supposedly at school ( hence the relevance of the ASRU) – whilst all these players would also fall into the pot as Juniors as well, thereby allowing them to be covered both the ASRU & the AJRU.

Doesn’t the crux of it come down to someone, somewhere, actually determining a formalized structure to encompass ALL junior rugby players - which in and of itself requires a determination as to who these p[layers are ? ( ie – everyone Under 18 at x date is regarded as a Junior – or something like that. I believe that there is currently discussion on other threads about this - and whether Juniors, for example, should go up to U16 only, and then have the Clubs / Colts system take over from U 17 ?)

Knowing some of the past & current protagonists in this area – I suspect that the Garling & Arbib Reports are gathering dust somewhere – and it will be only when someone actually forces a timetable for change – will things actually change.


( Such as when the ARU decreed the commencement of the Rugby Pathway – which caused all Participants to actually front at the old Subbies offices in Crows Nest to commence to thrash out a “doable” position – which to their credit, they actually did….eventually ! Mind you, there were some pretty heated “discussions” along the way – and everyone was pretty passionate about protecting their own little groups – as they should be )

Maybe something for Mr Pulver to consider ??? ( although I doubt that he will make many friends by being the catalyst for change

I dont think the private schools will cede control of their respective comps to any entity and, frankly, the ARU cant afford to alienate them.

 

[Man on the hill]

... Shouldn't the AJRU ( Australian Junior Rugby Union) - or whatever it's current handle might be, also be attached to your list somewhere as affiliating with ARU?
...

Apologies - I totally overlooked this additional layer of oxygen thieves! However, NSW Juniors are still affiliated to NSWRU and through that to ARU.

I have no idea what role AJRU play. It would require constitutional change (as I understand it) at NSW & QLD Juniors to change the affiliation path. Bigger concern than the lack of transparency or clearly defined role is that I have heard rumour that ARJU sucks about $100k from QLD Juniors & NSW Juniors to maintain a secretariat function! For what benefit or value? How many sausage sizzles is that Please Hugh J?

With regard to 2 peak bodies - sort of correct. I see it as 2 different voices in ARU land telling them how to manage YOUTH rugby in this land - please note the very deliberate use of the word YOUTH!

Schools is an attendance based affiliation, whereas, Juniors is (supposedly) a participation based affiliation.

Cheers MOTH

 

[Hugh Jarse]

^^^ (to post 11) And therein lies the biggest part of the problem.

Most other countries do not have our problems, because at high school ages there is either no Club rugby and a Schools Rugby board operates as a Peak body, or there is no effective schools competition and clubland rules the roost, attracting the best talent and development opportunities with a single Peak body.


Within the Schools RU, the "peak body" seems to exist to coordinate the rep programme only, leaving the subordinate peak bodies AAGPS, ISA, CAS etc to run their own programmes and competitions independent of any peak body input.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

../...snip.../..
Bigger concern than the lack of transparency or clearly defined role is that I have heard rumour that ARJU sucks about $100k from QLD Juniors & NSW Juniors to maintain a secretariat function! For what benefit or value? How many sausage sizzles is that Please Hugh J?

450 BBQ days or 33% of all SJRU BBQ's would raise $100000. Across Australia, I reckon it would be a 10% tax on all Jnr BBQ fundraising.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

USARugger,

How do things work in Goddamn Land with the juniors and schools in the Youth Rugby market?

USA is usually very good at their organisational structures and procedures. With an alleged 2 million rugby players in your country (Hmmm any ARU style accounting for those player numbers?) assumed to be widely dispersed in various pockets of concentrations from coast to coast, your Rugby Peak Body must have have adopted some innovative and effective procedures.

 

[USARugger]

^^^ (to post 11) And therein lies the biggest part of the problem.

Most other countries do not have our problems, because at high school ages there is either no Club rugby and a Schools Rugby board operates as a Peak body, or there is no effective schools competition and clubland rules the roost, attracting the best talent and development opportunities with a single Peak body.


Within the Schools RU, the "peak body" seems to exist to coordinate the rep programme only, leaving the subordinate peak bodies AAGPS, ISA, CAS etc to run their own programmes and competitions independent of any peak body input.

I'm on the mobile and doing a bit of entertaining right now so I can't respond to all the posts I want to right now - will be getting to that tomorrow.

I guess it is a product of history but the disjointed nature of the power structure through to junior rugby smacks of a bit of an administrative failure. For these schools, which are only as important as the ARU allows them to be, to have so much sway is deeply disturbing.

Especially when you consider that in the bigger picture this schools dominance is doing tons of damage to the game. Exclusionist by nature and providing a varying, often weak, level of competition as a whole they aren't doing us a ton of favors in terms of keeping the game healthy. Fact is the ARU should sanction the ever living shit out of these schools to the best of their ability until they fall in line and listen. I mean what would the schools do as revenge, stop producing rugby players?

Promoting and building the local clubs and investing in nurturing deep roots in the public schools struggling to maintain their programs or those without programs at all would be the most effective way to put the pressure on the schools outside of direct sanction. The only reason these schools have so much power is that they exist in a vacuum. One seemingly facilitated by the ARU.

 

[USARugger]

USARugger,

How do things work in Goddamn Land with the juniors and schools in the Youth Rugby market?

USA is usually very good at their organisational structures and procedures. With an alleged 2 million rugby players in your country (Hmmm any ARU style accounting for those player numbers?) assumed to be widely dispersed in various pockets of concentrations from coast to coast, your Rugby Peak Body must have have adopted some innovative and effective procedures.

USAR made central player registration a legal issue by tying it in to their player insurance program and making being part of that insurance program a mandatory thing for ALL players at any level. Very simple and effective way to reign the entire game in.

Clubs dominate the youth game here but some schools are starting to pick it up. Thankfully due to the central registration system any judgements USAR makes are seemingly universal (in the USA). Generally players will play for their club at youth through U-19, then play for their college side, then return to their club or transfer to another club if they moved. I was fortunate to live in an area with a very old and established club (Doylestown Dragons). There were probably 200 juniors from u-12 to u-18 between the boys and girls teams.

 

[RugbyTears]

Dear USARugger, thank you for showing interest in our junior Rugby organisation (sorry, organization!). I guess you probably think, for the 3rd ranked rugby nation in the world, we must have some super structure in place that has a clear path from the head office of the ARU all the way down to the most humble midget club. We are all right on the coal face of junior rugby in this country, and we have no bloody clue what that structure is. Can you share with us what this is if you find out ?

 

[Almost 2 old]

Hmmm..... We all talk the same language even though it is obvious we come from quite different demographics in society and Rugbyland. We all come to the same conclussion. Do we ALL have to go Sydney ,find the appropriate ARU person , drag him to someones garage and put his fingers in a bench vice and calmly talk to him until we get some sort of agreement on how to streamline the transition from playing park/school rugby to highest level rep rugby....or... is there just too many "sacred cows" and perenial ARU jacket wearers to kill off ?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Hmmm... We all talk the same language even though it is obvious we come from quite different demographics in society and Rugbyland. We all come to the same conclussion. Do we ALL have to go Sydney ,find the appropriate ARU person , drag him to someones garage and put his fingers in a bench vice and calmly talk to him until we get some sort of agreement on how to streamline the transition from playing park/school rugby to highest level rep rugby..or. is there just too many "sacred cows" and perenial ARU jacket wearers to kill off ?

we dont have to