The Pulverisation of Australian Rugby

[Train Without a Station]

Yet the Rebels, with some what of last pick due to preference to relocate only has 8 players that weren't signed to an academy and in professional set ups already at that point.

Yes it's a development tool. Nobody is arguing otherwise, but many are saying it's responsible for a lot more development, when it's really more of a development incubator, filling in the period between under 20s, and actually being ready which seems to come around 21 or 22 for most players.

 

[Strewthcobber]

:

Scott Higginbotham
.

For what it's worth I'm pretty sure Higginbotham was in some rep U19 sides while still at the Gold Coast. He was definitely in the Queensland Academy of Sport by the time he was playing Premier Grade for Wests

 

[Spieber]

Nic Stirzaker - Knox, Sydney Uni, then Melbourne Rebels. No record of junior rep, potentially fully developed by Shute Shield.

Lindfield U9s and Gordon Jnr Rep teams - possibly has played more Super games than SS.

 

[It is what it is]

For what it's worth I'm pretty sure Higginbotham was in some rep U19 sides while still at the Gold Coast. He was definitely in the Queensland Academy of Sport by the time he was playing Premier Grade for Wests

He was in Qld U19's in 2005.

 

[Quick Hands]

Aren't village clubs and shute shield clubs different entities though? The village clubs form subbies right?

No, the majority are just feeder clubs for a SS club. A minority also have a subbies team, but most subbies teams are stand alone and not afiliated with anyone.

 

[Quick Hands]

So you've basically said that nobody else at their school had any talent, and then use their team's poor results as a reason why their school rugby did nothing for them? How can you judge that? If they only had 2 players talented enough to make it to colts 1's 2 years later how can you blame the result on the coaching and development?

Aren't village clubs and shute shield clubs different entities though? The village clubs form subbies right?

I can judge that because 3 nephews of mine went through Pius and my in-laws were on the rugby committee there for about 8 years. I also know of the team that Hooper, Kingston et al played for at Manly Roos - coached by two ex first graders from 6s right through, including in Manly rep teams.

I presume that you have better information from Melbourne on these?

 

[Quick Hands]

How's it a cheap personal shot to say in our pool, the only people who support it are linked to those that benefit it?

I'd say that point is about as damning as Papworth's arguments on the other side.

Just because someone is involved doesn't mean that they are wrong or that they are making statements out of self-interest. Maybe because some of us are involved we actually know what we're talking about.

Just as I don't presume to know what happens in Melbourne or Brisbane clubs - because I know that the people involved there know exactly what they need and the value of what they do and they probably know the players.

You're now making ill-informed comments about players' development, when you clearly don't know the circumstances of their rugby development. You're just making sweeping generalisations based on your view of what is happening from another city. You seem to not even know that all junior clubs aren't also subbies clubs.

It's cheap shot because you're not addressing facts with the comment, you're trying to imply that people who hold a different view to you are doing so, not because they think it's best for rugby, but out of self-interest.

 

[Train Without a Station]

I'm actually asking how this village clubs are affiliated because the definition seems to change depending on he author's purpose.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

^^^^
It is complex. All Junior Village Clubs in Sydney are affiliated with Sydney JRU.

For Representative Rugby purposes, they are all grouped under into geographically based Districts, which conveniently happen to correlate to the Shute Shield Clubs.

Most of the Junior Village Clubs are stand alone Incorporated Entities, and are not answerable to a NSW Suburban Rugby Club Entity, or a Shute Shield Rugby Club Entity. There is often fierce local rivalry between Junior Village Clubs within a District.

Some of the teams playing under the SJRU banner are the "junior division" of a NSW Suburban Rugby Club, such as Oatley, and Newport.

Not many Shute Shield Clubs have an "Junior Division" that plays in SJRU competitions. West Harbour (Shute Shield Club) only has Wests Junior Rugby Club under its wing (although they are in the process of expanding) and they have a thriving Inner West Mini-Rugby Competition going in association with Uni (Shute Shield) and Balmain (Subbies). Most Shute Shield Clubs will have a Junior Rugby SubCommittee established to report to the Main Committee. This SubCommittee is usually made up of Presidents from the Junior Village Clubs in the Area and operates by consensus often with little support or interest from the Senior Club Committee. They typically coordinate the Under 6-Under 9 competitions because SJRU manage Under 10 and above competitions. It can pose some constitutional problems if you want to be pedantic because many of the Junior Village Club Presidents are often not actually registered members of the Shute Shield Club.

Some of the stand alone Junior Village Clubs and District Rep teams get great support from their "parent" Shute Shield District club in terms of moral and financial support, coaching assistance, access to grounds, facilities, junior academies and representative programmes. Others give almost no support apart from allowing the age group rep teams to wear a replica of the club jumper at NSW JRU State Championships.

The only constant is inconsistency.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Thanks HJ. My original thought and point was that most are fully independent much like subbies clubs are. Yet many want to thank the SS for the players development there.

It sounds like Manly and Parramatta do a lot, but that's 2 out of 12 teams. Hardly strong evidence the system is working well.

Looking at the Rebels the bulk of their recruits have links to Manly and SU. Now Manly may have done a fair bit, but Uni simply attracts the best junior rep players it seems.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

<snip>Uni simply attracts the best junior rep players it seems.

Not entirely true. Of late Uni have "developed" players through the Canterbury Junior RC, and more recently the Petersham Club. Perhaps they saw the writing on the wall when they "acquired" Canterbury Juniors off the Hobbits around 2004(ish).

Browse through the "Where are the Class of 20xx going to" threads and you will find that Uni have acquired about 3 Schoolboy Reps each year. Other clubs have done similar or better. There are even young men attending Resident Colleges at Sydney University that play for Norths, although I don't think that this is all that common.

SS Clubs have been watching the Uni model, and recruiting School Association, State and Aust Schoolboy Reps into club colts programmes has now become a competitive sport. Randwick web site announced that they are intending to have up to 50 young men on scholarship at the club for 2015, up from 35 this year.

 

[lincoln]

but Uni simply attracts the best junior rep players it seems.

Uni puts a fair bit into developing players - many of their success stories were not Australian Schoolboys.

 

[Strewthcobber]

SS Clubs have been watching the Uni model, and recruiting School Association, State and Aust Schoolboy Reps into club colts programmes has now become a competitive sport. Randwick web site announced that they are intending to have up to 50 young men on scholarship at the club for 2015, up from 35 this year.

It's good to hear the money is being spent on the personal development of these young men but isn't Randwick losing money hand over fist?

How can they afford to do that?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

It's good to hear the money is being spent on the personal development of these young men but isn't Randwick losing money hand over fist?

How can they afford to do that?

They have a tie up with UNSW - including sponsorship.
I am told the scholarships are fairly modest: i.e. not enough to change most player's mind.

 

[Strewthcobber]

They have a tie up with UNSW - including sponsorship.
I am told the scholarships are fairly modest: i.e. not enough to change most player's mind.

So 35 players, costing the club say around a grand each

About $28,000 / year?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

So 35 players, costing the club say around a grand each

About $28,000 / year?

I don't know the ins and outs of it but (a) its a bit more than that (b) it may not cost the club anything

 

[Strewthcobber]

I don't know the ins and outs of it but (a) its a bit more than that (b) it may not cost the club anything

I was taking the piss a bit there so did a little light googling.

It seems like a really good scheme - and I think you are right, sponsors are covering most of the costs. It seems like Randwick have realised their limitations in the current environment and done something about it. Full credit to them.

Liked this bit http://www.rugbynews.net.au/galloping-greens-planning-for-the-future/ - too many clubs are sending themselves broke with player payments

With no players being paid, club culture and the scholarships are a vital component of Randwick’s plan for long-term success.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I was taking the piss a bit there so did a little light googling.

It seems like a really good scheme - and I think you are right, sponsors are covering most of the costs. It seems like Randwick have realised their limitations in the current environment and done something about it. Full credit to them.

Liked this bit http://www.rugbynews.net.au/galloping-greens-planning-for-the-future/ - too many clubs are sending themselves broke with player payments

Randwick have done some really hard yards in their juniors keeping kids in the game when the easy thing is to let their U13-U16s fall by the wayside when the kids go to their respective private schools, or want to play Junior Bunnies. They have had a strong connection with Scots on one level and Newington on another.
The visible face of this has been Poidevin - others almost certainly have been involved but he has worked his proverbial off.
This will pay off in the medium term, IMO.
Easts seem to be taking a slightly different approach to getting connected to school leavers before they leave - that should help them, but their underlying demographic is not great for rugby.

 

[HighPlainsDrifter]

Jones played U16 Rep for Gordon , then Sydney Uni Colts & Grade (and Force), then Manly (and Rebels).

 

[Quick Hands]

Randwick have done some really hard yards in their juniors keeping kids in the game when the easy thing is to let their U13-U16s fall by the wayside when the kids go to their respective private schools, or want to play Junior Bunnies. They have had a strong connection with Scots on one level and Newington on another.
The visible face of this has been Poidevin - others almost certainly have been involved but he has worked his proverbial off.
This will pay off in the medium term, IMO.
Easts seem to be taking a slightly different approach to getting connected to school leavers before they leave - that should help them, but their underlying demographic is not great for rugby.

My information on the Randwick/UNSW tie-up is that it involves residing in College with some academic support and mentoring. One parent that I spoke to was very impressed and it made the difference where the kid will be in 2015. (They live on the north shore and have no connection to Randwick previously)