The Pulverisation of Australian Rugby

[Inside Shoulder]

I believe so. When you consider that they are getting around $15M which is due to increase to around $40M now wouldn't you consider that a decent investment as part of growing a market? The $3M share of TV revenue will be worth closer to $8M if that's the case. If that's the case that will suddenly be $3M back in ARU coffers. I'm not saying the Rebels are responsible for this, but there Rebels are an important factor in a TV product due to their market and potential growth.

Obviously NSW and QLD gets more viewers, but Melbourne is an important market for Foxtel as they have a low subscription base they are trying to grow.

It is plain that you are a s15 and above kind of guy.
Where would the Rebels or any of them be without the Clubs? Have you ever been to a club game?

As an anecdote, as someone in a Subbies club a few years back I had a passing acquaintance with Randwick and their attitude, and it wasn't pleasant at all. If you weren't Randwick, they didn't care. To the level of warehousing colts who would never get a game, just because they could.

Randwick treat (Edit: all) other SS clubs like that so don't attribute it to the fact that you were from a Subbies club.

I have been involved in both SS and Subbies over decades albeit not continuously and not at the moment.
They attract different players with different ambitions.

 

[It is what it is]

That was a one off when the ARU took control of the Rebels and had to provide a long term loan as part of that takeover.

We're yet to see the results for a full year after that change.

2014 will be telling in terms of what the Rebels actually costs the ARU.

OK thanks for that, I didn't know it was a one-off.
I became concerned when Harold Mitchell packed it in with the Rebels.
If anyone could network and maximise that franchise's potential it was him in the Melbourne market.
They'll need to perform on-field soon or they'll only attract rusted on fans to games.

 

[Highlander35]

Jordy plays for the Unitards.

Gus Roberts, Ben Meehan, Pat Leafa and Lalakai Foketi were the allocated Box Hill. The first 2 played a lot, the other two not so much.

 

[Braveheart81]

Did the loan proceeds involve / assist with investment in Cipriani, JOC (James O'Connor), and KB (Kurtley Beale) or did it help them with developing the Dewar schools and colts?

The ARU became involved after all those things. For a new team in a non-traditional market, big names were always going to be needed in the first couple of years to help create some interest.

OK thanks for that, I didn't know it was a one-off.
I became concerned when Harold Mitchell packed it in with the Rebels.
If anyone could network and maximise that franchise's potential it was him in the Melbourne market.
They'll need to perform on-field soon or they'll only attract rusted on fans to games.

It needs to be remembered that having a 5th team also allowed the ARU to take an equal share of the broadcast revenue rather than the reduced shares we've been subject to previously.

 

[Train Without a Station]

It is plain that you are a s15 and above kind of guy.
Where would the Rebels or any of them be without the Clubs? Have you ever been to a club game?


Randwick treat (Edit: all) other SS clubs like that so don't attribute it to the fact that you were from a Subbies club.

I have been involved in both SS and Subbies over decades albeit not continuously and not at the moment.
They attract different players with different ambitions.

Nah mate. I just see where the money in the successful codes comes from. I'm from the Gold Coast where most div 2 AFL teams are as independently as strong as Shute shield clubs are and where the Southport Sharks now in the NEAFL would rival super rugby teams financially.

TV money has enabled them to invest in the grass roots in the right place, the juniors. Not subsidizing senior clubs.

 

[Strewthcobber]

The base, TWAS, the base! Our game will wither if the base of the pyramid is starved. It will do no-one any good to have the top layers of rugby in Oz doing OK if they don't have pathways below them to provide players.

This is the fundamental disagreement on here I think.

Without putting words in TWAS's mouth - the Shute shield is not the base of the pyramid. Its somewhere three quartets of the way up, just below the marble clad pinnacle but with many layers above the real base.

 

[Train Without a Station]

To elaborate on BH's point Dave, what do you want? The Rebels to just get fucking flogged for a decade until they have enough local players bread through?

They are putting a lot into development pathways and promising juniors are starting to come through. They are getting a player a year making aus schoolboys now for example and that will only strengthen knowing there is a pathway.

 

[Dave Beat]

To elaborate on BH's point Dave, what do you want? The Rebels to just get fucking flogged for a decade until they have enough local players bread through?

They are putting a lot into development pathways and promising juniors are starting to come through. They are getting a player a year making aus schoolboys now for example and that will only strengthen knowing there is a pathway.

I actually supported the Rebels, and then attitudes changed that - so no, don't want them getting flogged.

The bigger the business the greater the room for disharmony, and differing views - I haven't understood, nor seen strength in your views.

Whilst the SS (Premier Club) is not the base of the pyramid it has a great influence / impact on the base and also pushes up.

 

[Train Without a Station]

The SS does and has done great things. But it's becoming obsolete in some ways. The Shute Shield should always remain but it's best for the code if it's importance diminishes.

It's important for Australian rugby that the NRC succeeds and replaces the SS as a major development pathway. The SS should be bridging the gap between subbies, and schoolboy rep to that level.

And for those people who talk about how subbies attracts different players with different aims, etc. that is an ignorant view. While the SS exists yes, without SS the best subbies competition would attract the most serious players and the less serious players would move down the grades or down the divisions.

Now I'm not advocating this, I'm just trying to again explain that there's much more to grass roots rugby.

And Dave don't you dare respond to this with that fucking letter again!

 

[Dave Beat]

The SS does and has done great things. But it's becoming obsolete in some ways. The Shute Shield should always remain but it's best for the code if it's importance diminishes.

It's important for Australian rugby that the NRC succeeds and replaces the SS as a major development pathway. The SS should be bridging the gap between subbies, and schoolboy rep to that level.

And for those people who talk about how subbies attracts different players with different aims, etc. that is an ignorant view. While the SS exists yes, without SS the best subbies competition would attract the most serious players and the less serious players would move down the grades or down the divisions.

Now I'm not advocating this, I'm just trying to again explain that there's much more to grass roots rugby.

And Dave don't you dare respond to this with that fucking letter again!

Best stay outside of NSW then, you are debating with people who like and know the SS rather well.

Diminishes?
Back when there use to be Promotion and Relegation - Dirty Reds spanked Hornsby by 40+ points in every grade & the difference between SS and Kentwall now is even bigger.

The once strong Hornsby has now diminished and headed up to the Central Coast - use to be a good sized catchment.

 

[I like to watch]

The SS does and has done great things. But it's becoming obsolete in some ways. The Shute Shield should always remain but it's best for the code if it's importance diminishes.

It's important for Australian rugby that the NRC succeeds and replaces the SS as a major development pathway. The SS should be bridging the gap between subbies, and schoolboy rep to that level.!

The Rays have 28 squad players?
They are totally dependant on the 4 SS clubs to provide cattle ready for the step up.
I know the Northern beaches clubs are already well into their pre season,doing 3 sessions per week.
The Rays feeder clubs would have have 150 odd player with first grade experience each year.
Without that structure of the 4 clubs,the Rays just could not field a squad anywhere near the strength that the current structure provides.
Strong Premier clubs are essential to the good health of the game.

 

[Train Without a Station]

No. Strong clubs are. Premier clubs being prioritised by entitlement is not good for the health of the game.

 

[Dave Beat]

The Rays have 28 squad players?
They are totally dependant on the 4 SS clubs to provide cattle ready for the step up.
I know the Northern beaches clubs are already well into their pre season,doing 3 sessions per week.
The Rays feeder clubs would have have 150 odd player with first grade experience each year.
Without that structure of the 4 clubs,the Rays just could not field a squad anywhere near the strength that the current structure provides.
Strong Premier clubs are essential to the good health of the game.

No worries, we'll drop into the Arms on a Thursday evening and grab a few blokes, the Savers could probably spare a few as well.

 

[Train Without a Station]

So without the 4 rays teams the 70 odd players per club would cease to exist?

More likely he subbies competition would be strengthened and if the rays were a rep team for the region, you would end up with something similar to the squad you have now.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

It's important for Australian rugby that the NRC succeeds and replaces the SS as a major development pathway.

So explain the logic that says the SS clubs should promote the NRC, risk their money, their players, their coaches (for no ARU money and for the ARU's purposes)with the long term aim of disappearing themselves?
Frankly, if that is the aim, then the ARU should have the balls and good grace to pull the trigger itself.
PS: it isn't the aim.

 

[Train Without a Station]

If they are the NRC teams they will then maintain their relevance and strength as commercial entities.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Any competition that is not a TV product has no future.

The NRC potentially is and the SS never will be. I think you fail to see that.

You weren't one of the NBA execs that's signed off on the Spirits ABA "in perpetuity" deal were you by any chance?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

If they are the NRC strength as commercial entities.

I'll smoke what he's smoking.
Funny you mention US sport - I was just thinking: you think this is Friday Night Lights or MOneyball and everyone is off to the "Show"

 

[I like to watch]

Manly have closer to 150 players than 70!
More likely probably 1/2 those playing now would drift away from playing.
It's not just the players,how many sponsors do you think don't have a lifetime attachment to the club they sponsor,they won't be throwing their money around in any subbies club.
Many of the volunteers would also stop participating.heaps of expertise in coaching/training would be lost to the game.
You can't just lose a level of competition and assume there will be no negative ramifications.

 

[TOCC]

Just to note..

19 local perth club players were capped for the Perth Spirit in the NRC including 16 in the first game of the season, and whilst i don't have the total figure for the Rising i know in one game they had 7 local club players in the match day 23.

Given the majority of Force, Brumbies, Rebels and Reds players remain and play in the respective local club competition, how can the ARU continue to justify giving a sizeable grant to the Shute Shield whilst neglecting other club competitions?

I wonder if this decision has anything to do with the Governance review, previously the NSWRU could have formed a voting block against it.