The Physical Strength of Australian Players

[Inside Shoulder]

Mongrel.

 

[Bruce Ross]

The thing that has stood out the most to me this season has been that the Australian teams are simply being overpowered in the collisions.

It makes it hard to defend when every time the opposition players run at the line they are able to stay on their feet for that extra metre or two before being dragged down.

Likewise it makes it hard to attack when our players keep get caught behind the advantage line in dominant tackles.

It's not like Australian players are physically smaller than the kiwis and saffa's, in both weight and height they are comparable - yet they are consistently weaker in the collisions.

With effectively no reconditioning time before the international season the national S & C coach is more reliant than ever on the work of the super rugby teams' S & C programs. Should he have more control over what the super rugby teams are doing with their strength and conditioning?

I have written about this subject on more than a few occasions so I will be brief. There is a great reluctance among strength and conditioning coaches in Australia to have their players do heavy strength training during the playing season, and in some cases not a lot of enthusiasm for it in the off-season. My impression is that coaches in other major rugby nations place much more emphasis on serious grunt work.

When players stop lifting heavy iron they quickly experience a de-training effect, losing muscle mass and strength.

Probably the biggest gym monkey culture in world rugby can be seen in England where players are judged by what they can bench.

To the extent that this is true it suggests that English coaches are using an inappropriate measure to rank strength. The bench press has very limited specificity for the sport of rugby. The barbell squat is much more relevant.
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[Inside Shoulder]

Bruce, do you subscribe the idea of heavy lifting during the season or just some lifting?
I think Kelvin GYlkes (?) the long time broncos s&c coach wrote a book called winter fitness and in that he said that many players were fitter and stronger at the start of the season than the end which was the very opposite of what was needed, given that the finals are played at the end.
I have a hunch that some of the top kiwi players well recognise this and that is why they can sometimes be a bit slow to show their true ability in the s15.

 

[Karl]

I have written about this subject on more than a few occasions so I will be brief. There is a great reluctance among strength and conditioning coaches in Australia to have their players do heavy strength training during the playing season, and in some cases not a lot of enthusiasm for it in the off-season. My impression is that coaches in other major rugby nations place much more emphasis on serious grunt work.

When players stop lifting heavy iron they quickly experience a de-training effect, losing muscle mass and strength.


To the extent that this is true it suggests that English coaches are using an inappropriate measure to rank strength. The bench press has very limited specificity for the sport of rugby. The barbell squat is much more relevant.
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It's ridiculous if this is true. They should be lifting seriously heavy weights and getting stronger. They should be carrying less body fat. And a Barbell squat is good, but the Deadlift is the GrandDaddy of them all.

By the way - Alcohol, in my view, should be banned during the season by the Coaching Staff. What other athletes, like Swimmers or Runners or Gymnasts, do you think have ANY alcohol during traing when they are preparing for events? Alcohol will destroy lean muscle mass better than chemo therapy and it's like a fat steroid. It's a toxin. And strength relies on muscle size, pure and simple. There are individual variations but for any given individual, bigger muscles means more strength. So you can destroy a month or more of strength gains in one night of drinking. That is a Fact.

 

[Bruce Ross]

Bruce, do you subscribe the idea of heavy lifting during the season or just some lifting?
I think Kelvin GYlkes (?) the long time broncos s&c coach wrote a book called winter fitness and in that he said that many players were fitter and stronger at the start of the season than the end which was the very opposite of what was needed, given that the finals are played at the end.
I have a hunch that some of the top kiwi players well recognise this and that is why they can sometimes be a bit slow to show their true ability in the s15.

I'm firmly convinced, IS, that heavy lifting in season produces significant benefits, particularly in relation to playing out a solid 80 minutes at the end of the season. Obviously the volume of such work has to be restricted but not its intensity.

I've seen this approach used successfully over the years at my own club, Sydney Uni. The contracted players do their gym training at their franchises so the Club S & Cs have no control over what they do, but the elite emerging players at the Club are all encouraged to lift heavy.

A dramatic demonstration that this approach works was in 2008 when Jerry Yanuyanutawa, just days after an outstanding performance in the Shute Shield Grand Final, box squatted 6 reps with 260kg:

http://myoquip.blogspot.com.au/2010/07/jerry-yanuyanutawa-rugby-front-rower.html
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[Inside Shoulder]

do the mungoes push weights during the season?

So you can destroy a month or more of strength gains in one night of drinking. That is a Fact.

In my day we seemed more worried that one day of any sort of training could undo a night's drinking

 

[BPC]

There is a great reluctance among strength and conditioning coaches in Australia to have their players do heavy strength training during the playing season, and in some cases not a lot of enthusiasm for it in the off-season.

I would imagine that managing the workload can be tricky. I suspect that many clubs sacrifice intensity and maintain volume when perhaps they should be looking at the other way around. I am amazed that a few training books by Australians, even quite recent ones, duly trot out a linear periodisation scheme with the usual drop off in heavy training during the playing season due to the 'heavy demands during the playing season'.

The bench press has very limited specificity for the sport of rugby. The barbell squat is much more relevant.

The bench press has limited specificity for just about any sports, unless one considers ego masturbation a sport.

Wouldn't the power clean be a more useful guide, albeit a more technical lift?

 

[Karl]

When it comes to strength for a sport like Rugby - Deadlift. Is. King.

And Bench press is a good indicator of upper body strength and as a measure of the weight you can bear. Its just not about the lift, it's about being able to be under the weight and control it.

 

[thierry dusautoir]

I think that if you look at alot of the Aus provinicial forward packs they are full of very young players and i think if you look at the ones who can handle the physical demands they are the older senior players. its the reason most props dont get good till post 25 because thats when their largest physical size. But i dont think its about the mentality whoever said that and spoke of the their childhood hey day needs to get their hand of it. But in seriousness one thing Aussie forwards do have is better ball handling then their counterparts. I feel in about 1 or 2 years time this question of physicality wont be as big

 

[BPC]

And Bench press is a good indicator of upper body strength and as a measure of the weight you can bear. Its just not about the lift, it's about being able to be under the weight and control it.

Not a lot of sports involve controlling weight while lying prone and supported. Basically for any sports, exercise where you are on your feet while lifting a weight would be much more useful.

 

[Cave Dweller]

Media try make gods out of humans. When you hit the field, reputations mean absolute shit. Goliath or All Black, they going down! - Fuimaono Sapolu

 

[Karl]

A lot of work with rugby involves supporting weight, bracing against forces and transmitting force. A body used to the feel of heavy weight (either in squats or deadlifts or bench press etc) is going to cope better and that player is going to be more effective. There is a difference between building strength - IE - more lean muscle mass - and functional movement. You just can't do the former while standing all the time. Once that strength is built, it's application in terms of the functional requirements of the sport, is about technique.

 

[Viking]

GREAT THREAD. This is a real problem. I agree with Bruce about lifting heavy, there should be more of it, and more enthusiam towards making strength gains. Just look at how much more effective Drew Mitchell is now after he strengthened his core (Drew stated in a G&GR podcast - this was a big reason he became more effective at tackle busts). But more importantly strength in the forwards is a must, look how effective the Franks brothers are, well-known powerlifters/strength trainers.

Most notably this problem was outlined to me with McCabe's effectivness in crash balling, Against the Rebels it was very effective. Against the Bulls he nearly got turned over/held up many times (he did manage to suck a few defenders tho at times - but this is not due to his strength). This immediatly got me thinking, wow these SA guys are physical (also got me questioning McCabe effectiveness at international level - but thats for another thread).

Althougth, I must say the brumbies did a good job against the Bulls in terms of physicality and intensity, so I dont believe we are too far behind, We do have players that are capable of matching the physicality of SA and NZ, I think the problem is that just about EVERY NZ and SA player is very physical, even the players just coming on the scene (I dont even know the names of half those Bulls player - but all were physical) whereas the new Aus players are a few years behind. I think we just need a change in attitude (to start strength at a younger age).

 

[thierry dusautoir]

I put forward that perhaps the reason that even the younger & non-internaniol level plays have this level of strength is perhaps due to the fact that they are all in professional systems from a young age all year round with ITM & Currie cup teams

 

[AngrySeahorse]

I have written about this subject on more than a few occasions so I will be brief. There is a great reluctance among strength and conditioning coaches in Australia to have their players do heavy strength training during the playing season, and in some cases not a lot of enthusiasm for it in the off-season. My impression is that coaches in other major rugby nations place much more emphasis on serious grunt work.

When players stop lifting heavy iron they quickly experience a de-training effect, losing muscle mass and strength.


To the extent that this is true it suggests that English coaches are using an inappropriate measure to rank strength. The bench press has very limited specificity for the sport of rugby. The barbell squat is much more relevant.
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True Bruce.

I love weight training & my view of it in regards to rugby is that every type of weight training you do is a piece of the puzzle, without one of the pieces you will gain a weakness. I always maintain one max strength session per week in the in-season because I'm sure without it all my hard earned strength gains would go down the drain.

I would add these observations though. I've seen players in club land focus on Hypertrophy only - they are big but they aren't hard enough to withstand big contact. Those that do Strength only are hard but they disadvantage themselves by not doing any Hypertrophy before hand so that they have a bit more weight to harden up. Even the smallest players can benefit from Hypertrophy training but some just don't try because they believe if they aren't inclined genetically to put on heaps of muscle then they shouldn't bother. Lastly, the players that do Hypertrophy & Strength effectively but with no explosive/power weights are pretty ineffective during a Rugby game, from props all the way back to fullback. Rucking, counter-rucking, fending, tackling, etc they are all power orientated, strength is needed to withstand the impact but has nothing to do with INFLICTING impact onto others & essentially pushing them back. The latter is what I think is more a problem I believe NZ in particular is way more explosive or dynamic in their play than us. Of course attiutde & technique have their place too.

I do agree though about the lack of Strength element being an issue & although I know rugby has injuries as a part of the game I do believe that a lack of strength is what contributes to injuries. Oz teams have had plenty of those recently.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

GREAT THREAD. This is a real problem. I agree with Bruce about lifting heavy, there should be more of it, and more enthusiam towards making strength gains. Just look at how much more effective Drew Mitchell is now after he strengthened his core (Drew stated in a G&GR podcast - this was a big reason he became more effective at tackle busts). But more importantly strength in the forwards is a must, look how effective the Franks brothers are, well-known powerlifters/strength trainers.

Some will recall a theory, applied particularly to Bobby McCarthy from the game they play in hell, that if you're a speed player (like Mitchell is/was (I hope not)) pushing heavy weights will blunt your speed: with a guy like Mitchell I wouldn't be surprised if this was the thinking to which he was exposed when he first left school.

Looking at some of the kids going around for the schools these days I doubt that the "muscle bound theory" is current any longer: there are a couple from Scots and Harry Jones from Kings who is in the Gold squad is absolutely massive in the quads.

What is the latest thinking on whether heavy weight lifting has a negative impact on speed - I assume the NFL players do it, the olympic sprinters and the league players. But it doesn't look to me like many soccer players get into serious weights even for their legs.

 

[AngrySeahorse]

Some will recall a theory, applied particularly to Bobby McCarthy from the game they play in hell, that if you're a speed player (like Mitchell is/was (I hope not)) pushing heavy weights will blunt your speed: with a guy like Mitchell I wouldn't be surprised if this was the thinking to which he was exposed when he first left school.

Looking at some of the kids going around for the schools these days I doubt that the "muscle bound theory" is current any longer: there are a couple from Scots and Harry Jones from Kings who is in the Gold squad is absolutely massive in the quads.

What is the latest thinking on whether heavy weight lifting has a negative impact on speed - I assume the NFL players do it, the olympic sprinters and the league players. But it doesn't look to me like many soccer players get into serious weights even for their legs.

This is an interesting area you mention.

You need huge quads to be a good sprinter & a decent sized arse (muscle not fat of course). Calves on the other hand, whilst they need to be strong are not meant to be big, a big calf actually has a negative influence on speed. It all comes down to how people train, are they training for speed or just to get big? Plenty of blokes at my club have bigger quads yet I out sprint them because they just do the bodybuilding stuff with no concentration on plyos or explosive lifting. See the article attached & point 3 talks briefly about calf size. I'm basically saying that weights is fine but there is a good argument that you need to be careful in how you train. If you're a speed train you'd stay away from bulking up your calves.

Sprinters have one burst in their event, League, NFL, & Rugby all have various bursts. Soccer players have a more constant endurance based type of game so IMO that is the reason for them being more lean & focusing more on just endurance than the other sports.

I was a sprinter, soccer player, & now Rugby player - so I'm taking my views on personal experience. I wouldn't mind hearing from any other sprinters about what they think of the calf situation, I think it makes sense.

http://www.sportingedgeaustralia.com.au/pdf/assessment_in_sprinters.pdf

 

[Inside Shoulder]

You need huge quads to be a good sprinter & a decent sized arse (muscle not fat of course).

The fastest 13 year old Ive ever seen is a string bean.
So does that mean that you expect huge quads but they'd be useless if they were the result of training to get them big?

 

[Karl]

Jeese, people seem to think you'll train a bit and suddenly get so huge it'll be a problem.

Two hard and really heavy weight sessions a week (as heavy as the person can go with a structure to build the weight) for up to 90 minutes each with proper recovery and the right diet (obviously diet is massively important - you want to get stronger you need to feed the muscle) and no alcohol. Then whatever other specialised training you're doing.

I doubt most Rugby players are even close to being disciplined enough in terms of diet and staying off the booze.

 

[AngrySeahorse]

The fastest 13 year old Ive ever seen is a string bean.
So does that mean that you expect huge quads but they'd be useless if they were the result of training to get them big?

I do know some sprinters that were very lean when young. However, they all had to work on developing their upper legs as they got older or they got taken over by sprinters that were more powerfully built.

Training for big quads won't make them useless it's just that so many people (particularly in club land) forget that after they build up their quads they actually have to do speed work, explosive lifts, etc to take advantage of the extra muscle mass they now have so they can use it to generate more speed. If you just build them up with Hypertrophy/bodybuilding training, they'll be big, they'll look good, they may even be stronger than before but without any sprint specific training they will be, from a speed perspective, pretty darn slow & not much use for a sport like Rugby.